Hank Mobley

[mrjazzman]

Looking for cd or cd-r of "A Slice Of The Top" by Hank Mobley on Blue Note. Thanks.

mrjazzman

[Kevin Bresnahan]

I believe you should delete this post.

[shrugs]

why?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Originally posted by shrugs
why?

Maybe because this web site is paid for by musicians.

Maybe because is pretty damn insensitive to all these musicians.

Maybe because it's illegal.

Maybe because it's just plain stupid to go a public forum and ask for something that's illegal.

Maybe all of the above.

Why do you ask, shrugs? Do you think this thread is appropriate for the Jazz Corner's Speakeasy? Why not go to the "Ask The Musicians" forum and ask a few of them what they think?

Later,
Kevin

[crawjo]

Originally posted by Kevin Bresnahan
Maybe because this web site is paid for by musicians.

Maybe because is pretty damn insensitive to all these musicians.

Maybe because it's illegal.

Maybe because it's just plain stupid to go a public forum and ask for something that's illegal.

Maybe all of the above.

Why do you ask, shrugs? Do you think this thread is appropriate for the Jazz Corner's Speakeasy? Why not go to the "Ask The Musicians" forum and ask a few of them what they think?

Later,
Kevin

Actually, I would argue that 9 times out of 10, the musician benefits from having their music heard, regardless of whether someone buys the CD or gets the CD-R. It is only to the musician's benefit to be in someone's cd player, as this will make the person more likely to buy music or tickets for the artist in question in the future. CDs are expensive, and oftentimes people won't buy until they hear. I know that I recently burned a copy of a current jazz artist's cd for a friend, who had never heard of the artist before. After listening to the burned copy, she went out and bought a couple of albums, and is now a fan. This never would have happened without my "illegal" copyright infringement.

Aside from that, give shrugs a break. He said CD or CD-R. He just wants to hear the album.

[gnhrtg]

Oh, here we go again - the annual cd-r thread. I'll go get something to drink.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by gnhrtg
Oh, here we go again - the annual cd-r thread. I'll go get something to drink.

Hmm. In that case, the powers-that-be should move this to Speak Out.

[Lois Gilbert]

Actually I want to check in here. The reality is that Hank Mobley's estate will never see any money. The record is out of print. It is not being sold on Ebay. He did say CD or CD-R. I get hundreds of free records, I never sell them. I will give them away if I don't want them.

Kev, I don't agree with you here. It's not like the live bootlegs that were selling on Ebay of Renee and Dave Holland, etc. Just one woman's opinion

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Lois,

Bobby Watson has several Blue Note CDs that are out of print. Are you saying that it would be OK for me to post here asking for burns of those? I would love to hear what Bobby thinks of this.

Ditto for Renee Rosnes. Her early Blue Note catalog is out of print in the US. What... oh yeah, Renee offers Canadian versions on her Jazz Corner site. But since they're not available in the US, I guess it's OK for US citizens to burn them?

BTW, just because an artist is dead, does not mean that their estate gets "nothing" from sales of their back catalog.

I think allowing requests for CD-Rs on Jazz Corner is just asking for trouble. A much better solution is to eliminate ambiguity and ban such requests.

Of course, it's your board and you can do as you see fit.

Later,
Kevin

[mrjazzman]

Wow, I'm new to this forum and I sense nothing but hostility, especially from people like Kevin. Looks like I've created a fire storm by simply trying to complete the Hank Mobley section of my collection with the oop cd/lp A Slice Of The Top. Maybe I don't understand the concept of this forum. Excuse me for upsetting you Kevin. Like Nixon once said, 'You won't have me around to kick anymore'........or something like that

mrjazzman

[Kevin Bresnahan]

mrjazzman, I am not uptight. I am a very relaxed person. You are taking my dialog here too seriously. Shrugs and I have gone 'round & 'round on this topic on other bulletin boards in that past so the tone seems harsher than it should.

As for my beliefs, I have sympathy for your plight. I too have filled many holes in my collection with CD-Rs of hard-to-find or oop sessions, including vinyl dubs. However, I do not come to a public forum and ask around for burns... especially not in a public forum funded by musicians whose livelihood seems threatened by this kind of practice. I also don't believe these kinds of requests belong on the bulletin board of a record label... Blue Note's now-defunct board was a good example... that's the place where shrugs & I got into debates over it.

I would imagine by now that your post got you what you needed, especially given the number of responses it has gotten. What I would do if I were you is to expand on your needs through E-mail. There is quite a network of helpful Jazz nuts out there who are always willing to help out. I have gotten help from all over the world... in fact, I am sending something to the UK today.

However, if you have not received any offers, please E-mail me. I would be able to help.

I even have a copy of the very rare Japanese Renee Rosnes CD "Face To Face" that I could burn... Just kidding Lois!!

Later,
Kevin

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I’m one of those jazz musicians with a Jazzcorner.com website that supports this board. I have four CD’s of my own, and am co-owner of my small record label (about 30 titles), so I have a few thoughts on this subject. Any way you cut it, this is not a simple issue. What may apply to the estate of Hank Mobley is different to the concerns of the many people involved in putting out new products, most of us being generally unknown.

I’ve heard of cases where people have burned copies of my discs rather than buy them, but I’ll tell you what’s much worse… We sent out hundreds of promotional copies of my latest CD. How many? 350 radio play copies, 250 review copies and 150 promos for the disc’s distributor (City Hall Records). Every single copy has the bar code punched through and a sticker that says “NOT FOR SALE, this CD is the property of Invisible Music and is for promotional purposes only”. But guess what, you can buy any number of these promotional CDs you want from places like ebay, half.com djangomusic.com and a bunch of others who hawk MY PROPERTY as being in “like new” condition! Some actually say the “only defect is a hole in the bar code” Sheesh!!!

I used to feel very indignant when I’d learn of someone pirating my CD, you’d think I’d been mugged or something. But the truth is, if I’m giving away hundreds of CD’s in the name of publicity then what difference does it make if a fan burns a copy for a friend? At least this is a person to person recommendation for my music and I prefer it greatly to someone selling my promotional copies. So, I’ve come full circle in my thinking as a jazz musician. I now feel that ANYTHING that gets my name out there is a good thing-good in the sense that every micro-bit of publicity is worth its relatively small cost. The CDs are irrelevent....it's ME that needs to get out there!

Our situation as jazz musicians is fundamentally different from the pop records that make all the news with kaza, napster and the legal actions of the record “industry”. Pop records sell in the millions and jazz records sell in the hundreds (or a really big hit sells a few thousand copies). And that’s the difference…big money versus, well, peanuts. If Joe Pop Star loses 10% of sales it’s enough to form a full time legal department on Madison Avenue! Guess what 10% of my sales buys?

But back to publicity. The problem is that it is very difficult to find any correlation between hard publicity and record sales. Great reviews, national radio charts and coordinated advertising do NOT translate to record sales. I’ll give you one small example. A few months ago I gave jazzcorner 10 promo copies of my CD A Balance of Light (with Bobby Watson) for the group review thread here on JC. Many wonderful reviews and supportive posts followed which greatly warmed my heart and swelled my head, but do you know how many CD sales were processed through Jazzcorner on-line ordering? Zero! Not a single copy sold from then through now! Maybe someone picked it up at towers or other online stores, but I thought JC would be the natural first stop for any BBS participant, no?

So, what’s to make of this? Well, first I’ve come to believe that jazz record buyers have become extremely conservative and just won’t spend money unless they know what they’re going to get. Thus, I sell records by the dozens when I do high profile concerts with my guest artists (like Bobby or Tiger Okoshi) where we perform the music that’s on the CD. Otherwise, sales are minimal despite all the publicity and even good radio play (we made it to #20 on Jazzweek), which doesn’t make a dent. Second, jazz records never go out of style (at least the good ones don’t), so every new artist releasing a CD still has to compete with all of the masterworks that have come before. It all comes down to consumer motivation if there is to be any market for a CD.

And how many people really give a shit about collecting a full set of Hank Mobley? Not enough to warrant a pressing of 1,000 apparently! All it would take to put it out is about two grand!

At my level, the bottom line is that piracy does more (or at least as much) to build a market for me as all of the voluntary investments I’ve made into publicity (self-piracy??). I never thought I’d find myself saying this, but I now feel that if you rob me at least maybe you’ll know me- it’s indeed just another form of promotion! In the end that's all most artists are trying to do....to be heard. Oh, and to survive, but for most of us that really has precious little to do with the record business.

[claude]

Hey Mark,

Unrelated to this thread, but I thought I would pass along the fact that one of my partners here at the office bought one of your CDs (Amphora, I believe it was called) last time he was down to Maine. This was completely based on what he had heard from my review copy of "A balance of Light" (which I still listen to regularly).

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Originally posted by claude
Hey Mark,

Unrelated to this thread, but I thought I would pass along the fact that one of my partners here at the office bought one of your CDs (Amphora, I believe it was called) last time he was down to Maine. This was completely based on what he had heard from my review copy of "A balance of Light" (which I still listen to regularly).

Claude, thanks for telling me that, maybe he'll play that one for you sometime

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Originally posted by mark kleinhaut
Claude, thanks for telling me that, maybe he'll play that one for you sometime

Nah, he'll just have his friend burn a copy!

Mark, thank you for the musician's angle on this hot topic.

Regarding Jazz Corner sales, I have only used Jazz Corner for a few CD purchases. I was told many years ago by a Jazz musician at a gig (Jamie Baum maybe?) that they make a lot more money off of CDs sold at gigs than any other type of sale. I bet I have over 100 CDs that I bought at shows. Mark, is it true in your case as well? Do you make the most money off of a direct sale at a show or are other avenues like Jazz Corner as beneficial?

Later,
Kevin

[Mark Kleinhaut]

The Jazzcorner CD store is the most artist friendly deal on the web! And, there is even a charitable giving component as well. More people should use it---really! Like most, I do best when I sell on gigs, though sometimes the promoters take 15% if their people handle the sales. Other internet sites do well (including my own label's site), but JC people should really be supporting the JC CD store....it's a win win win for everyone involved!

Here is the blurb from JC:

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