Is it possible that Sun Ra spoke the truth when he claimed to be born on Saturn?

[crawjo]

I'm curious to see how you guys respond to this. Please feel free to elaborate on your answers below.

[Dan G]

I'm in the unanswerable category. Didn't he later in life sort of explain that his saying that was just as valid as any of the other myths of creation, and if some people believe in a biblical version of the beginning, why not just say that you are from Saturn, because it is just as easy to prove? Maybe in Szwed's book, I don't remember. If so, then I can't answer. Or maybe the spiritually possible one would have been better. However, I do believe there can be life other places than earth, so...

[crawjo]

I'm actually reading Szwed's book right now, which is what prompted this question. I'm only 200 pages in, but I haven't seen the quote you refer to, so far.

The thing about myth is, it doesn't necessarily mean "not true."

[Brian Olewnick]

Someone, maybe it was Szewd (I haven't read the book), interviewed Sonny Blount's half-sister in (iirc) Alabama and asked her about her brother's claim of extraplanetary birth. She said something on the order of, "Saturn?! That boy was born right here in Alabama!"

I'm with her.

I'm probably in a minority here, but I find that whole aspect of Blount's shtick to be pretty embarassing.

[Uli]

I answered: possible

My answer is based on (I think) Jonny Griffin's response to the same question (paraphrased) "Everybody who tries to create something beautiful *must* be from another place.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by Brian Olewnick
Someone, maybe it was Szewd (I haven't read the book), interviewed Sonny Blount's half-sister in (iirc) Alabama and asked her about her brother's claim of extraplanetary birth. She said something on the order of, "Saturn?! That boy was born right here in Alabama!"

I'm with her.

I'm probably in a minority here, but I find that whole aspect of Blount's shtick to be pretty embarassing.

That's pretty pejorative, to dismiss Ra's philosophy as a "schtick." He was far, far too talented a musician for him to need a "schtick" in order to advance himself. If anything, his cosmic philosophy made it easier for people to dismiss what he was doing. He may have been delusional, he may have been manipulative and egomaniacal, but I don't think it was a schtick.

[Brian Olewnick]

Yeah, it's perjorative, I admit. fwiw, I'd say the same about, say, Alice Cooper (though Ra's obviously, at least to me, the more talented musician). Whether he "needed" it or not, he used it and, as far as I know, may have believed much of it, though I'm cynical enough to hedge my bets on that one. I just happen to be reading Barnes' bio of Don Van Vliet, wherein the subject claimed to remember his birth. I don't believe him either, thinking it much more likely he simply was over-inflating and embellishing his past to make it interesting, unique, etc. Blount came out of the space-age 50s and latched onto a bunch of real, real hokey sci-fi concepts. He professed a belief in all manner of nonsense from astrology to UFOs to alien construction of the Pyramids. I don't see any reason not to consider a Saturnian birth as anything other than one more piece of tripe.

This said, I love much of his music. As with Braxton, I think many of his belief systems are in the same seriousness realm as belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy (or Jesus, for that matter), but people who believe odd things have been known to produce great art. That's the way it is.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Considering all the people who claim to be in direct, regular, personal contact with The Creator Of The Universe, Sonny's claim seems rather modest to me.

"And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land."

-- Exodus, II, 22

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Squaredancecalling Steve
"And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land."

-- Exodus, II, 22

Ooh, I love it when you quote scripture.

[crawjo]

Originally posted by Brian Olewnick
Yeah, it's perjorative, I admit. fwiw, I'd say the same about, say, Alice Cooper (though Ra's obviously, at least to me, the more talented musician). Whether he "needed" it or not, he used it and, as far as I know, may have believed much of it, though I'm cynical enough to hedge my bets on that one. I just happen to be reading Barnes' bio of Don Van Vliet, wherein the subject claimed to remember his birth. I don't believe him either, thinking it much more likely he simply was over-inflating and embellishing his past to make it interesting, unique, etc. Blount came out of the space-age 50s and latched onto a bunch of real, real hokey sci-fi concepts. He professed a belief in all manner of nonsense from astrology to UFOs to alien construction of the Pyramids. I don't see any reason not to consider a Saturnian birth as anything other than one more piece of tripe.

This said, I love much of his music. As with Braxton, I think many of his belief systems are in the same seriousness realm as belief in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy (or Jesus, for that matter), but people who believe odd things have been known to produce great art. That's the way it is.

You should definitely read Szwed's biography. So far, I'd state, unequivocally, that it is the greatest jazz biography I have ever read. I think you might come away from it with a different point of view about Ra.

[JazzCat]

What were Braxton's claims?

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally posted by Pete C
Ooh, I love it when you quote scripture.

Leviticus 20:

9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
10 If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
14 If a man marries both a woman and her mother, it is wicked. Both he and they must be burned in the fire, so that no wickedness will be among you.
15 If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death, and you must kill the animal.
16 If a woman approaches an animal to have sexual relations with it, kill both the woman and the animal. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
27 A man or woman who is a medium or spiritist among you must be put to death. You are to stone them; their blood will be on their own heads.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally posted by crawjo
You should definitely read Szwed's biography. So far, I'd state, unequivocally, that it is the greatest jazz biography I have ever read. I think you might come away from it with a different point of view about Ra.

Hard to imagine with regard to these type of claims. Either he believed them, in which case I'd question his mental competence or they were a show, in which case the shtick designation (is there a preferred spelling for this term? I've seen it with and without the "c") applies.

JazzCat, Braxton was (and, afaik, still is) into all sorts of odd belief systems. He had an early dalliance, through his association with Corea, with Scientology (surely one of the most moronic of pop religio-psychological constructs) and has professed belief since then in writings and interviews in blather like numerology, astrology, etc.

As I said above, this doesn't necessarily effect the quality of the music produced. Who knows what's going on in the head of a given player watching he/she on the bandstand? But in Ra's case, his beliefs were an overt part of his performance so, depending on one's views of them, they could have a positive or negative effect in the listener. Were I watching Charles Gayle and he went off on an anti-abortion rant, well, that's going to figure in my evaluation no matter what I thought of his tenor playing. If Player X stopped mid-set to lecture the audience about the wonders that the Raelians have in store for us, that would too.

[mke]

What happens if a woman lies with a woman as one lies with a man?

[walto]

I guess I took from the Szwed that Sonny was a sensitive kid & the army gig messed him up. He was never the same.

Oh, for Crawjo's benefit (a lot of others have heard me bitch about this) I think Szwed could have spared at least one paragraph for Robert Cummings.

[mke]

Originally Posted by LeMo

The Sun Ra mythology seems to me quite armless.

Fantastic assessment!

Isn't Charles Gayle coming to Belgium soon? Or is it a Charles Gayle film being shown at the Nova? I'll have to check.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by crawjo

You should definitely read Szwed's biography. So far, I'd state, unequivocally, that it is the greatest jazz biography I have ever read. I think you might come away from it with a different point of view about Ra.

crawjo, how long have you been listening to Sun Ra? a few months? Brian's been listening for I'd guess 30 years, I think he's got a pretty good perspective on the guy.

my own perspective is that when I was a 21 year old college student who hadn't heard almost any jazz, and my friends dragged me down to Central Park to see Sun Ra (1987? 1988?), it was one of the most mindblowing musical experiences of my life. we sat right in front of the stage, I'd never heard anything remotely like it, definitely a big factor in my exploration of experimental music since then. for that, I'm forever grateful, and I personally could care less whether he was from Saturn, Alabama, or a mixture of the two.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

crawjo, how long have you been listening to Sun Ra? a few months? Brian's been listening for I'd guess 30 years, I think he's got a pretty good perspective on the guy.

my own perspective is that when I was a 21 year old college student who hadn't heard almost any jazz, and my friends dragged me down to Central Park to see Sun Ra (1987? 1988?), it was one of the most mindblowing musical experiences of my life. we sat right in front of the stage, I'd never heard anything remotely like it, definitely a big factor in my exploration of experimental music since then. for that, I'm forever grateful, and I personally could care less whether he was from Saturn, Alabama, or a mixture of the two.

I'm not questioning Brian's knowledge of Ra's music. I'm just saying that if he read the Szwed biography, he might decide that Ra's philosophy was not, in fact, a "schtick", and that it was rooted in belief systems more complex than 1950s pop culture.

But then, I'm guessing that Brian thinks any belief system that isn't based on scientific knowledge and/or a modern understanding of human morality is irrational in one way or another. At least, that's the impression I get from his references to religion in this thread. Of course, I could be wrong.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally Posted by mke

What happens if a woman lies with a woman as one lies with a man?

"If a woman lies with a woman as one lies with a man, don't ask, don't tell."

-- Book of Bubba, part Deux

[LeMo]

Well, now you're making irony on me Mwanji? How do you do dare?
No, in fact you're right.
My english is not good enough to enter a discussion of this kind and exprime myself fully and with intelligibility.
So, I'm going to delete this post right now.

[mke]

Originally Posted by LeMo

Well, now you're making irony on me Mwanji? How do you do dare?

I know, I should be ashamed of myself...

[gnhrtg]

Well mke, I can't help but wonder what made you quote LeMo again. Granted, the smily is missing this time, but...

[mke]

Originally Posted by gnhrtg

Well mke, I can't help but wonder what made you quote LeMo again.

I quote LeMo at every available opportunity. You would too, if you knew him.

[Jon Abbey]

the following post is actually from Brian O., who's having trouble posting on the new JC:

(crawjo wrote): "But then, I'm guessing that Brian thinks any belief system
that isn't based on scientific knowledge and/or a modern understanding of
human morality is irrational in one way or another. At least, that's the
impression I get from his references to religion in this thread. Of course,
I could be wrong."

No, you're correct. I'm a complete and utter anti-mysticist. Still, I can distinguish between complex systems (most of the world's great religions)
and dime-store tripe. Let's take Scientology for example. One can document
through people who were there at the time (like writer Fritz Leiber) that
Hubbard began this idea specifically as a game to prove his contention that
he could invent a religion and gain adherents. Despite this, and despite
it's obvious Ponzi scheme format and the puerile SF-derived notions that
make up its "philosophy", it has attracted otherwise talented people into
its midst. So I can watch, say, "Pulp Fiction" and be very impressed by
Travolta's acting ability therein while at the same time keeping the thought
somewhere in the back of my head that, with regard to other intellectual
pursuits, the man is a moron. I should say, either a moron or a cynical
manipulator of the beliefs of others and, frankly, I'd bet more on the
latter. But the fact is, and is obvious I think in a case like Scientology,
that people can show extreme talent, even genius in one field while being
totally bamboozled and foolish in others. Happens all the time.

Szwed presumably goes into more detail on the subject in his book, but I've
heard and read Ra interviewed many times over the years and I never thought
he made a remotely good case for his belief system. At best, he sounded like
a rascally old codger having fun playing with the gullibility of his interviewers, at worst he sounded like any street-corner crank inveighing against the world sins and promising come-uppance from some mystical source. Again, by the coincidence of my reading the Beefheart bio at this time, one can see a very admired person (I admire Van Vliet, musically, at least as much as Ra) might quite consciously create all manner of myth about himself, including blatantly making up stories. I.e., lying. I don't "like" having this fact out there, but what is, is. For myself, Sun Ra being an important, great musician is enough, whatever silliness exists along the edges.

I will say that, as far as those here have voted, I find it rather
depressing that no one else is willing to simply say, "this is impossible".
If you can't get an acknowledgement of reality on this, to me, trivial
level, imagine how difficult it is to achieve mutual understanding in some
field where you actually have to deal with subtle facts and gradated
perceptions, like politics.

[walto]

"At best, he sounded like
a rascally old codger having fun playing with the gullibility of his interviewers, at worst he sounded like any street-corner crank inveighing against the world sins and promising come-uppance from some mystical source."

As I mentioned above, I don't think those two alternatives are the only ones--or even, necessarily, the most likely. IMHO, most Scientologists (or Xtians or whatever) aren't trying to bilk anybody--they're just people who have themselves BEEN bilked. Again, I think Sonny was a troubled, sensitive person. The military wasn't the answer for him.

Incidentally, as I mention in my book, I think a good deal of Hubbard's "religion" was just lifted from Freud/Breuer. Change "hypnoid state" to "reverie" and Viola!

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

the following post is actually from Brian O., who's having trouble posting on the new JC:
I will say that, as far as those here have voted, I find it rather
depressing that no one else is willing to simply say, "this is impossible".
If you can't get an acknowledgement of reality on this, to me, trivial
level, imagine how difficult it is to achieve mutual understanding in some
field where you actually have to deal with subtle facts and gradated
perceptions, like politics.

I think it confirms a lot of things.

[mke]

Originally Posted by walto

Change "hypnoid state" to "reverie" and Viola![/font]

Viola what?

(OK, this was just to show LeMo I'm an equal opportunity teaser.)

[LeMo]

Originally Posted by mke

Viola what?

(OK, this was just to show LeMo I'm an equal opportunity teaser.)

The Viola In My Life...

Mwanji, rather than play the buffon here, man, why don't you give us your thougths on the question debate in this thread?
I want to read that.

GNHRTG : don't take it too seriously. Even if Mwanji is very childish for a grown man of 25, I think (and much handsome, I must say), after a difficult start, we have becoming very good friend.

[Tom Storer]

I voted "impossible." Like Brian, I think it was a schtick; like LeMo, I think it was harmless.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

like LeMo, I think it was harmless.

Hey, don't mutilate his argument. "Armless" was a conflation of a French-accented harmless ('armless) and the UK english use of legless, as in an argument that has no legs. Except that in this case it had no arms. I sincerely found it a beautiful, funny image. I'm a typo fan: I named my cat after a typo.

Originally Posted by LeMo

Mwanji, rather than play the buffon here, man, why don't you give us your thougths on the question debate in this thread?

I voted impossible. From what I know of Saturnian atmospheric conditions, I don't believe it possible for a being born there to survive in terrestial climes. Plus, the costumes always struck me as very B-series. That said, I haven't listened to much Ra. I did start reading Swzed's bio, though.

Even if Mwanji is very childish for a grown man of 25, I think (and much handsome, I must say)

What, me, childish?! (throws tantrum) I'll try to wear more revealing clothes at our next meeting.