Jazz and proselytizing

[TheMusicalMarine]

I know many of you are of the mindset that jazz is great, and to hell with anyone who thinks otherwise. I think, though, that a great many of you would like to "educate" the naysayers, and turn them onto the joys of the genre. I thought perhaps we could share our stories, whether successes or failures, of spreading our gospel.

I've got a good buddy who listens mostly to underground music. A couple years ago I turned him onto to Spanish guitar (Segovia, Villa-Lobos) and some Basie. I keep him informed on my journey through jazz, and he recently asked for some recommendations. He ended up getting Monk's Music. At the time, I was thrilled. Finally, someone I actually know personally whom I can share the music with. He bought Kind of Blue a week later.

Flashforward to now. He hasn't bought any more, but he says he still has them in his rotation. I'm a bit disappointed, but I figure he's made an effort, and that's something.


Another buddy of mine enjoys Mingus, but not enough to buy anything. I did however burn him copies of about a dozen cds, at his request.

I got an ex-girlfriend interested in June Christy.

I'll be thinking of more. Please share.

[crawjo]

I've given up, for the most part. When I hear something that I think will appeal to someone, I try to share it with them. But more and more I have found that my friends and family members don't think about or care about music as much as I do, and they don't "get" most of the jazz that I listen to. I'm fine with it. I've come to accept that I listen to a niche music. I don't try to hide my love for the music I listen to, but I've pretty much given up proselytizing. After I told someone that they absolutely HAD to listen to Taylor's "Rick Kick Shaw" and they responded that they could barely resist the urge to make the awful music stop halfway through it, I began to realize it was hopeless.

[Il Anto]

It took me years to realize that you can't influence people to the point where you can make your passion their passion. The best you can do is to maybe hook them to some sounds and if they want to explore that avenue sometime in their life will. If they're not open to it, then they're just not open to it and there's really nothing you can do about it.

[GoodSpeak]

I play Jazz on my classroom computer at school as the kids file in the door.
I have made more than a few converts and will continue to do so in the future.

I support Jazz when it comes to town and parts North [Bay Area/Fresno] and South [LA/Orange County] and MC the HS Jazz Band concert.

My JAZZIZ magazines get taken to the doctor offices around town and to my racquet club.

I talk it up every chance I get.


I'm never giving up!

[Thelonious Nick]

I think crawjo is right. For most people, music is just background noise, maybe something to listen to for passing time in the car, or to dance to, but otherwise not really important in its own right. On the other hand, those few for whom music is important will probably be receptive to recommendations from another music lover, even if they aren't (yet) jazz fans. I don't have any outright conversion stories, but I have turned on people who are already dabbling in jazz to artists or albums they might not otherwise have discovered.

GoodSpeak is lucky because high school students are at an age when music really speaks to a lot of them, and because in general they are more open-minded about new ideas than older people. I think high school students are more likely to be intrigued, rather than repelled, by sounds they haven't heard before.

I have disliked with great intensity the movie "Jerry Maguire" from the first time I saw it, because of the scene where Tom Cruise and Rene Zellweger are making out to the babysitter's music, which happens to be Miles and Coltrane's "Live in Stockholm," but then turn off the stereo with Cruise commenting "What is this stuff, anyway?" Unfortunately, I think this a typical reaction for those who have not heard much jazz before.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by Thelonious Nick

...which happens to be Miles and Coltrane's "Live in Stockholm,"....

Minor detail, but that was 'Haitian Fight Song' by Mingus (I'm guessing from 'Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus')

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Thelonious Nick

GoodSpeak is lucky because high school students are at an age when music really speaks to a lot of them, and because in general they are more open-minded about new ideas than older people. I think high school students are more likely to be intrigued, rather than repelled, by sounds they haven't heard before.

No luck involved, Nick...it's my job.

I present Jazz in a positive light and don't use put-downs when a kid says he hates it. And I will further suggest to you that HS kids are quite possibly the most close minded people on this or any other Planet. Peer pressure, the need to fit in and the media drivel passed off as music are the main culprits for this.

Having said that...once you gain their trust and respect, they will listen.



It is the same thing with adults. It just takes a little longer is all...

[mke]

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

Minor detail, but that was 'Haitian Fight Song' by Mingus (I'm guessing from 'Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus, Mingus')

Yes, but when the babysitter gives it to Jerry, he says it's Miles & Coltrane.

[Thelonious Nick]

Ah, I expected the producers of the movie to have some idea of what they were doing. Probably what happened is that the script called for the Miles and Trane song, but when the sound editors actually got around to putting the song in, they said "Who cares, it's just jazz, nobody will know the difference anyway," and put in whatever they had lying around.

[Thelonious Nick]

[QUOTE=GoodSpeak]And I will further suggest to you that HS kids are quite possibly the most close minded people on this or any other Planet. Peer pressure, the need to fit in and the media drivel passed off as music are the main culprits for this.[QUOTE]

That's not at all how I remember my friends in high school, but then again, my group was definitely on the social fringe of our school. I think any chance of us being popular or fitting in was slim to none. Many of us played in local rock bands, a few of us went on to become college DJs, all of us were music snobs and voraciously listened to whatever we could get our hands on. Any of us could name a dozen alternative rock bands off the top of our heads from the Manchester, U.K., Chapel Hill, or Chicago scenes (Seattle was already passe). I had already encountered John Coltrane's Giant Steps, and in my senior year a friend turned me on to Miles Davis's Sketches of Spain. But maybe we weren't the typical high school kids....

[Pete C]

I don't bother trying to talk up jazz in general with people who aren't interested. For people who are just discovering jazz I try to give listening suggestions, and for people who have discovered and enjoyed particular artists, I try to suggest other artists they might like.

I'd be annoyed if somebody tried to preach heavy metal or opera to me, so I don't want to harangue anybody with my musical tastes.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I'd be annoyed if somebody tried to preach heavy metal or opera to me, so I don't want to harangue anybody with my musical tastes.

What about jazz fans haranguing you to proselytise?

[GoodSpeak]

[QUOTE=Thelonious Nick][QUOTE=GoodSpeak]And I will further suggest to you that HS kids are quite possibly the most close minded people on this or any other Planet. Peer pressure, the need to fit in and the media drivel passed off as music are the main culprits for this.

That's not at all how I remember my friends in high school, but then again, my group was definitely on the social fringe of our school. I think any chance of us being popular or fitting in was slim to none. Many of us played in local rock bands, a few of us went on to become college DJs, all of us were music snobs and voraciously listened to whatever we could get our hands on. Any of us could name a dozen alternative rock bands off the top of our heads from the Manchester, U.K., Chapel Hill, or Chicago scenes (Seattle was already passe). I had already encountered John Coltrane's Giant Steps, and in my senior year a friend turned me on to Miles Davis's Sketches of Spain. But maybe we weren't the typical high school kids....

Well, Nick...how we remember HS and how it actually was may or may not be the same thing

I've been on both sides of the fence on this one...

[Boris Badenov]

-----That's not at all how I remember my friends in high school, but then again, my group was definitely on the social fringe of our school. I think any chance of us being popular or fitting in was slim to none. Many of us played in local rock bands, a few of us went on to become college DJs, all of us were music snobs and voraciously listened to whatever we could get our hands on. Any of us could name a dozen alternative rock bands off the top of our heads from the Manchester, U.K., Chapel Hill, or Chicago scenes (Seattle was already passe). I had already encountered John Coltrane's Giant Steps, and in my senior year a friend turned me on to Miles Davis's Sketches of Spain. But maybe we weren't the typical high school kids....


-----Well, Nick...how we remember HS and how it actually was may or may not be the same thing

I've been on both sides of the fence on this one...
*************

I think you guys are both right. With all due respect to Mr. Speak, the last thing free thinking high school students are going to do is take suggestions form their English/Speech teacher (or any other teacher)!

[claude]

I have been able to get one of my partners listening to all kinds of jazz. He is a little more musically adventurous than most and loves to hear what wierd stuff I am listening to when we are in the office late (which is often). He has been picking up some Ornette and just the other day he came in to my office to ask what I knew about this Ayler guy.

I also have been somewhat successful in getting my wife to listen to a lot of jazz. Although she draws the line at what she calls my squeaky music.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by claude

Although she draws the line at what she calls my squeaky music.

Blossom Dearie?

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Boris Badenov

With all due respect to Mr. Speak, the last thing free thinking high school students are going to do is take suggestions form their English/Speech teacher (or any other teacher)!

Free thinking? Well...maybe not. I mean, if being "free" means you dress like and act like all of your friends. Just an observation.

And you're right. No self respecting teenager is going to openly admit he actually listened to an adult...on any level.


BTW...for the record...I was a member of that "fringe" back in the day, too. It's probably why I like Jazz; I had an opened mind.


Like I said: I've been on both sides of the fence.

[Gary Sisco]

I'm pretty much with Pete.

The best preaching I ever got to do was working in a record store, where, on my shifts, I controlled the in-store music selections. On those days, we'd always sell some jazz, but pretty much only on those days. I think I'm personally responsible for the sale of every copy but mine of Dave Douglas Tiny Bell Trio's *Songs For Wandering Souls,* in Vermont. Every time I played it in the store, if there were more than three people there, one would buy it. One young woman browsed through the stacks for the duration of the whole thing. Then she asked me what the CD was, and she bought it.

The music does its own preaching if its allowed to be heard.

[Mike Schwartz]

I'm glad for my own sake and sanity that my days of putting down what YOU like are long since over, which includes the preaching thing!

What I'm delighted to say happend by osmosis, is that since coming out to Cali, and in 9 years of doing radio, my closest circle of freinds really like a great deal of what I listen to and go out to see.

As friends who like to spend time together, we've met one anothers kids,spouses and significant others.

My best friend Sean was ready for jazz, and just didn't know it until we became friendly. Having come out of Chicago and digging the blues, he was kind of stuck on being an aging Deadhead and finding remastered old rock, and the smallest smattering of very 'classic' jazz. He really loves the music in it's many different ways. He now digs some things I lay on him that are 'out' or not in the mainstream, and I think I wisely brought him along to where it was obvious he was ready for it, culminating with a Art Ensemble concert which blew him away [and me too again].

Our entire little crowd has been amzingly open to trying different things.
We regularly load up a car, or find a running mate for what we call *musical therapy*

I've often been put to task to describe what it is I've been touting as terrific, as the little test as to whether they think they'll like it and want to go. For those who have hung in there, it's become "trust Schwartz" now that they realize that from one band to the next, one CD to the other, can be really good and really different from one another and fall under the rather large jazz umbrella.

Several of thier kids ranging from 9 to late teens[7 of them] have tagged along with no long faces, like being out with thier folks and friends and have dug what they've seen and heard!

One guy's daughter came home from college for spring break, the semester after taking some appreciation of jazz class, had done the concert thing with us during HS, and asked her father if they could catch a gig while she was home on break, which they did the other day!

Just goes to show that attraction rather than promotion will often be effective...

[sonic1]

My taste in music has always been described as "acquired". So be it. But I think in order for music to progress and grow there needs to be some zealots out there.

In the case of jazz or any other "art" music there is definately some unlearning to do-though admittedly I always liked art music-when I first heard Anthony Braxton I was in high school (in the 80s) and I was floored. I didn't know music could be like that. I might have been somewhat more enamored because it was a hip college radio station (vassar college) that turned me on.

But with the FCC making it nearly impossible for these little radio stations to make it, and with the internet crackdown on free internet radio, I think it will be harder.

Still the kids are into the music more than you know. Why do you think they are re-issuing all those avant-garde jazz albums (Impulse!, ESP, Actuel, Sackville, etc.)? So all you old fogies can double up on what you already own? No. The kids that WERE into punk are moving into something more underground and hip, and free jazz seems to be something they are biting. That is my guess. I am in my early 30s I guess I don't count as a kid anymore. But I sure don't feel grown up.

I also think jazz is among those musics which have to work against pop music. Pop music usually pumps consonance into our heads-or the idea of consonance. Jazz and other art musics use notes that don't jive necessarily with what is already expected.

Maybe art music will always be on the fringe because most people don't like to be surprized with their music. They like predictability. (Though, I have my Ramones bubble gum punk days too.)

Still I believe in that saying, "todays dissonance is tomorrow's consonance".

Even if there are STILL people out there who say Cecil Taylor doesn't know what he's doing. (you'ld think after over half a century people would wake up).

Jared

[Bill Barton]

For the most part, I'm with crawjo on this one. "Converting" someone? It ain't gonna happen unless they're ready to be converted. But - interestingly enough - I'm down with Goodspeak too. Exposure is the key. Let them hear the music and then make their own decisions. Take it or leave it as the case may be.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Bill Barton

But - interestingly enough - I'm down with Goodspeak too. Exposure is the key. Let them hear the music and then make their own decisions. Take it or leave it as the case may be.

Thanks, Bill.

Exposure IS the key. No doubt in my mind.

I mean...how will they know what they like or don't like unless they hear it?


I'm not giving up.

[Armando]

Originally Posted by claude

I also have been somewhat successful in getting my wife to listen to a lot of jazz. Although she draws the line at what she calls my squeaky music.

My wife will listen to -- and almost always enjoy -- whatever jazz I have on, but will rarely make jazz her first choice when she gets to pick the tunes. I've also learned that she doesn't want to know the ins-and-outs of jazz like I do, so I've given up the preaching and am just happy she enjoys it.

She has a similar point where she'll draw the line. She doesn't call it "squeaky music" like your wife does, claude. Instead she calls it "Passaggio music" after the Sylvie Courvoisier, Joelle Leandre, and Susie Ibarra CD called Passaggio. She didn't care much for that one.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I don't know about preaching to the unconverted, but one of the things I have found is that a lot of Jazz fans themselves are stuck in a particular niche of Jazz and only like that - so some people only like bebop, others only like swing or 60s Blue Note.

Of course, the one thing they all seem to say is that Jazz stopped when Miles went electric!!

So my success has been coverting people from this view - I can't count the number of times I have been talking to people who say - oh Miles electric stuff is horrible, I only like acoustic Jazz/bebop etc. But then, I've played them "In a Silent Way" and by the time Miles' trumpet has come in, they are saying : wow this is really good, I never expected it to be like this, it's so light and melodic etc. etc. And they are converted!!

[claude]

Originally Posted by Armando

My wife will listen to -- and almost always enjoy -- whatever jazz I have on, but will rarely make jazz her first choice when she gets to pick the tunes. I've also learned that she doesn't want to know the ins-and-outs of jazz like I do, so I've given up the preaching and am just happy she enjoys it.

She has a similar point where she'll draw the line. She doesn't call it "squeaky music" like your wife does, claude. Instead she calls it "Passaggio music" after the Sylvie Courvoisier, Joelle Leandre, and Susie Ibarra CD called Passaggio. She didn't care much for that one.

I'm like you, I've given up preaching and I try to be considerate as to the types of music that she doesn't like. It's funny but her name for the music comes from a Wayne Shorter CD with a lot of soprano on it that, I suppose, could be interpreted as "squeaky". So now anything with any upper register playing on tenor, alto or any other instrument she refers to as squeaky music.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I don't know about preaching to the unconverted, but one of the things I have found is that a lot of Jazz fans themselves are stuck in a particular niche of Jazz and only like that - so some people only like bebop, others only like swing or 60s Blue Note.

Of course, the one thing they all seem to say is that Jazz stopped when Miles went electric!!

So my success has been coverting people from this view - I can't count the number of times I have been talking to people who say - oh Miles electric stuff is horrible, I only like acoustic Jazz/bebop etc. But then, I've played them "In a Silent Way" and by the time Miles' trumpet has come in, they are saying : wow this is really good, I never expected it to be like this, it's so light and melodic etc. etc. And they are converted!!

So apparently, they know that jazz stopped, but haven't actually listened to the music to confirm the notion?

[Armando]

Originally Posted by mke

So apparently, they know that jazz stopped, but haven't actually listened to the music to confirm the notion?

That would require too much effort for some people.

There's a radio station here in Charlotte that plays all jazz and I'm grateful for it. Only thing is that the selections they play never stray from a certain tempo and you hardly ever hear a cookin' solo. It's straight ahead, safe jazz. Background music for the bankers. It requires no effort on the part of the listener.

Jazz to me, unlike pop music, is music that requires a little more effort that some other genres. Not that it's hard work to listen to it, just that you get so much more out of it when you pay attention.

But if one banker starts to dig jazz or keeps the station on regularly, then, regardless of what type of jazz they're playing, it's seepin into their consciousness and that's a step in the right direction.

[Gary Sisco]

People like what they like, is my decision on this question, but they often don't know yet what they like or don't like because they haven't heard it yet, and most of them won't. Matters not, really. But the point is if they don't ever hear it or listen to it (and I agree that good jazz rewards more the listener more often when the listener is prepared to actually listen to music and not just hear it; but many people today are not, it seems.) So be it, though, really. There never actually was a period when "jazz was popular music" in the sense that we use the term today. *Some* jazz in the swing days made it all the way into the popular music world of the time, true, but the same can be said for the 60s and every other time, really. It's no different today.

I've been arguing for years that jazz is actually in one of its brighter periods, and in the midst of what will someday be seen as a period as creative as any other in the music's history -- has been since 1990 or thereabouts.

And there's never been a better time far's buying jazz recordings go, or finding them. It's hardly a challenge at all, today, unless you're a real record collector (as opposed to music collectors, which are not always the same beast). You know, like the cat that has to have the original mono version of xxxyyyzzz and nothing else. For those guys nothing's changed, but for people who just want to hear the music and find it? The present is paradise, man, believe me, especially for people who live outside a major metro area. There's basically nothing you can't find and listen to now. As far as being able to hear the music goes, the concept of "out of print" is out the window. Nearly anything that's ever been recorded is available.

Doesn't mean everyone wants to hear it, or ever will.

[Gary Sisco]

I'm always interested in the partner and jazz issue, because I've never experienced it. I like reading about people's experiences who have, though.

My attitude's always been to get right to it, and if she doesn't dig it, she's not going to dig me or hanging with me, either, so ... Bronwyn and I bonded over a fattie and Miles Davis. In like Flynn, baby. Still going strong ten years later, this coming July.

[Armando]

Here's one for ya, Rainman:

A few months back, my wife and I were working around the house and listening to Greg Osby's Inner Circle. The CD finishes and nothing comes on after it so there's just the sound of two people doing housework. A few minutes into the silence, my wife (who had never really heard much Osby, if any, before) starts humming one of Osby's riffs from CD. I just looked over at her and smiled.

It seeped in.

On the other hand, she once suggested we use Passaggio to clear the house if some party guests stayed too late into the night.