Soprano saxophone

[mke]

I've noticed that saxophonists that double on soprano tend to have a pinched, high-register sound, whereas pure soprano players (Lacy or, in Belgium, Pierre Vaiana) tend to have a much fuller sound that extends into a quite lower register.

I was wondering, is this due to (lack of) instrumental mastery on the part of the doublers or because tenor (and alto) players already have that lower register at their disposal, so are more attracted to playing higher on the soprano?

[Capt.W./TX.]

I can't give you as definitive an answer as a woodwind player could. But over 40+ years of playing with reed players, I've noticed that the ones who have earned advanced degrees in performance and are used to doing a lot of doubling (playing shows, studio work, etc.) and teaching seem to get a more consistent quality of sound in all registers.

The ones like Lacy (who only plays only soprano) and Wayne Shorter (who plays soprano and tenor) seem to achieve a more personal and readily identifiable sound. The full-time doublers I noted above tend to get a more 'generic' sound on any horn they play.

As for the pinched upper register sound you referred to: there seems to be a lot of variables in the production of sound on any saxophone, including (but not limited to) the horn the player uses (the age, the manufacturer, condition of the instrument), the mouthpiece (metal or hard rubber, facing), ligature (which holds the reeds in place), the type of reeds the player uses (make, plastic or cane, thickness). Also, the player's embouchure (the mouthpiece in his mouth).

One contemporary performer who gets almost as personal a sound on soprano sax as he does on tenor is Joe Lovano. He also doubles on other woodwinds, including alto and bass clarinet.

[Don't know if all the foregoing really answers your question or not, but it might give you a few insights...]

[Paul B]

As Lacy says, playing two saxophones is bigamy. I kind of agree.

In any case, soprano is a difficult instrument--it poses problems not found on the other horns--and most doublers just don't put the time in necessary to have a strong and individual sound on it, which is why there are so few individual voices on it amongst them. Shorter and Liebman are the only two who seem to have really nailed it, but Shorter plays soprano at least half the time, and Liebman plays it just about all the time these days.

Soprano is a quirky, strange instrument that, even when practiced regularly, can bite you in the ass sometimes. Capt. Hate is right that the instrument and set-up are important, but that's only part of the equation (which is true for any of the saxophones.)

Bye-ya.

[mke]

So what about delving into the lower registers?

[Pete C]

I think the Coltrane example has a lot to do with it. Very few tenors doubled on soprano before he did, then everyone did. Trane kind of set the standard for the sound.

[yardbird]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I think the Coltrane example has a lot to do with it. Very few tenors doubled on soprano before he did, then everyone did. Trane kind of set the standard for the sound.

I guess I have to agree on Coltrane setting the standard, something I find regrettable from time to time, when hearing a lot of mediocre soprano playing by doublers.

But even if Coltrane set the standard, Lacy at that time already was established as an individual voice (apparently without influencng too many others).

And then we have the original soprano player Sidney Bechet, influencing Johnny Hodges and I believe to a certain extent also Zoot Sims. Sims soprano playing is an extension of his tenor style, of course, very individual with a great sound and a nice contrast to all the snake charmers trying to follow Coltrane.

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by mke

So what about delving into the lower registers?

In general, the smaller the bore of the sax ( sopranino being the smallest down through bass sax ) , the more difficulty most players ( especially non professional doublers ) will have in producing the lower three or four notes with a pleasant or even sound ..

one might also factor in the fact that the low note on a soprano is just a major third below middle C ..a note much more comfortable in the reanges of all the other saxes ( save possibly the bass sax )

[mke]

Originally Posted by graypencil

In general, the smaller the bore of the sax ( sopranino being the smallest down through bass sax ) , the more difficulty most players ( especially non professional doublers ) will have in producing the lower three or four notes with a pleasant or even sound ..

Some have that problem all across the range...

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Shorter and Liebman are the only two who seem to have really nailed it, but Shorter plays soprano at least half the time, and Liebman plays it just about all the time these days.

Liebs is doing the Three-Tenor group these days with Lovano and Brecker and when I saw the group he was playing tenor at least half the time.

[Paul B]

Well, for many years Liebman was playing almost exclusively soprano. And while I think he has his own voice on it, I also don't care for it much. Would rather hear him on the big horn (though not in the "three tenors" group).

Coltrane's soprano playing, while often brilliant, can also be exacerbating...Just as he strove to play higher and higher on the tenor, he eventually did the same on soprano. I don't know....sometimes it just doesn't work. He certainly didn't develop the possibilities of the horn the way Lacy (of course) and others after him did.

Bye-ya.

[Pete C]

Lucky Thompson and Barney Wilen are two guys who had their own sound on soprano. I think both played it before Trane, though I'm not certain.

[mke]

Coltrane's soprano playing, while often brilliant, can also be exacerbating...

What do you mean by this?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by mke

What do you mean by this?

I think he means "exasperating." I'm pretty sure he doesn't mean "masturbating."

[james harrigan]

Originally Posted by Paul B

...Coltrane's soprano playing, while often brilliant, can also be exa[sp]erating...Just as he strove to play higher and higher on the tenor, he eventually did the same on soprano.

I completely agree. I just don't dig Trane's sound on soprano very much.

It is certainly true that most non-specialists don't sound that great on soprano: it either sounds downright bad, or like a not-very-imaginative extension of their tenor or alto voice. One exception is Michael Blake: I think of him as a tenor player first, but he has a great, original conception on soprano.

Among soprano specialists, I think Sam Newsome deserves a lot of props. He's had an interesting career: started out as a cookie-cutter young lion tenor player with Terence Blanchard, but over the years gave up the tenor, and neo-bop, in favor of pursuing his own original agenda on the soprano (elements of middle eastern music, lots of interesting use of voice and percussion, among other things). I don't think everything he does works, but he's always worth hearing, and his soprano playing is just wonderful.

[Paul B]

I mean just what I said. Coltrane's soprano playing (for me--gotta always remember the "IMO" in these parts) is often grating and unmusical. By the time he picked up the straight horn, he was simply looking for an extension of his tenor, and it often shows. There's little attempt to treat the soprano as a unique instrument, and his style and approach were not modified at all when he played it. So yes, for me Coltrane's soprano playing is far less compelling than his tenor playing, for which he is rightly revered.

Tout simplement.

Bye-ya.

[james harrigan]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I mean just what I said.

uh, I don't think so, Paul. You wrote "exacerbating", which is meaningless; I presumed you meant "exasperating". Either that, or you're channeling Goodspeak...

other than that, we're on the same page re Trane.

[Mike Schwartz]

Mark K,

Leibman's participation in the 3 sax group includes Dave playing a bunch of soprano. At the IAJE set he mostly played soprano with Lovano & Brecker on tenors.

A lesser touted 'doubler' on the soprano who is excellent IMO is Steve Wilson, who majors on alto, and also plays flutes pretty well, and some clarinet.

I'm in agreement with some on Coltrane's soprano playing which I loved in some settings, and not so much in others.

[Paul B]

A little of both I guess. Exacerbating is somewhat correct in the sense of its meaning as harsh or aggravating. But I agree that its usage is questionable in this context. Let's just settle for annoying.

[stonemonkts]

I enjoy Liebman's soprano in the context of his work with Marc Copland.

Just thought I'd chime in.

Also, I prefer Shorter's soprano over Coltrane's, especially circa 1968-1973 or so (late 60's Miles/early Weather Report).

Lacy is my favorite on it by far, epecially with Mal Waldron. The duo he did with Evan Parker is special too, imo.

[mke]

I like Joel Frahm's soprano on "Don't Explain." It has a lot of warmth to it.

Of course, there's the other trend not yet mentioned: soprano as signifier of treacly sentimentality...

[Paul B]

Of course, there's the other trend not yet mentioned: soprano as signifier of treacly sentimentality...

Let's not go there....

[clinthopson]

My personal standard on the fish horn is Zoot Sims, then Johnny Hodges, they were able to get beautiful sounds out of an ugly sounding instrument.

[Joe Milazzo]

I'd like to hear more about the difficulties that attend to playing the soprano. It seems to me that here are some players, like Michael Marcus and Lol Coxhill, who have often exploited the, well, creative possibilities of being out-of-tune on the instrument.

It also occurs to me that I read a comment by Wayne Shorter somewhere (maybe in the liner notes to SUPERNOVA) that he turned to the soprano sax partly in response to the increased presence of amplified instruments and percussion in Mile Davis' ensembles. Certainly, soprano sax is prevalent in a lot of "jazz-rock fusion", whether its being played by Shorter or Farrell or Liebman or Grossman or Garbarek... The sound of the horn cuts through some of the murk introduced by this style. I wonder if the popularity of fusion and the example of soprano playing set within these groups continues to be an imporant influence on those who take up the instrument without any thought of ever playing in a fusion ensemble.

Among the doublers, Lucky Thompson certainly stands out. He probably has the most purely beautiful tone on the instrument and his conception is very original, not too beholden to his work on tenor. Lee Konitz has also taken up the soprano sax on occasion, and turned in some interesting performances -- HEROES and ANTI-HEROES, the duets with Gil Evans.

[Tom Storer]

Paul B:

"Exacerbate" is transitive--it has to have an object. Subject exacerbates object. When you say Coltrane's soprano playing is exacerbating, one has to ask: what does it exacerbate?

Mwanji:

"I've noticed that saxophonists that double on soprano tend to have a pinched, high-register sound"

...that saxophonists who double on soprano...

No need to thank me, guys.

[Paul B]

I already said in my response to James that my use in that context was dicey, though my dictionary--in addition to the definition you've given--defines exacerbate as "to aggravate." So yes, the usage was questionable, but not entirely wrong. Perhaps future posts on this thread can return to the subject at hand.

Bye-ya.

[Dick Trickle]

I double on alto and soprano. Soprano is a tricky horn and demands alot of attention. It is surprisingly strange how playing one effects the other... the alto takes a few bars (sometimes choruses) to resonate and warm up and vice versa. But, even with that it provides an opportunity to have a variation in color.

Coltrane sounded great most of the time on soprano. He really layed into it.

Why no mention of Branford? He sounds very good on soprano especialy the Dark Keys album. I didn't buy it, it was a gift. I shelved it and then recently checked it out and I think he does an allright job with an enjoyable double.

I know... who could possibly bring that one up?

But for real... soprano's have alot of issues upstairs and I for one tend to not like to use the upper register because it is squirrely and becomes an acquired taste I suppose... lotsa practice to get that upper end going. Flute Partita's are helpfull in tuning that stuff. Rex

[Paul B]

Agree about Branford. Always liked his soprano sound.

The high end of the horn is indeed a bitch. Mr. Lacy gives some sound advice about dealing with that terrain in his book "Findings".

Bye-ya.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by Joe Milazzo

Among the doublers, Lucky Thompson certainly stands out.

Oh man, Lucky is so the bomb on sop! I loves it.

[gonzo]

wayne, wayne, and furthermore wayne.

[Lady LCD]

I love this place

I am also a "doubler" if playing three or four horns will actually count here for the duration of my post. For my part, and admittedly my horn of choice is the bari, The change from the "sax" style of the bari, tenor and alto to the pseudo-clarinet soprano has been one of my greatest challenges in moving up the voicing chain. While tenor and bari have a very... hmmm... open-throated and more of a "relaxed" embouchure, the sop is much tighter. It has always been a challenge for the sax players I know who "play all of them" (It is a stretch for me to believe that a good bari player ever really makes the jump to sop very well) to even just convince their entire head (lips, cheeks, tongue etc.) to make the change gracefully.

In my time playing I also find, that due to this change, switching up (from tenor to sop) usually results in an over-compensation driving the pitch upward and making it very difficult to play in tune. This is even more pronounced as you reach for the upper registers on the soprano. It takes a lot of practice to be able to switch this up effectively. I do think that the idea that the "horn in my hands can play higher notes" may play a part in the process but I am not certain to what extent. Almost certainly it depends on the player.

One last thing from me on this one... (and I hope I haven't gotten so boring in my third post that you have stopped reading yet) Many years ago, I found a soprano for “sale” at a price that even a jazz musician could afford. (which is to say someone was just going to throw it away and I was in the right place at the right time) Even now I love that horn BUT... there is so much variance within the actual mouthpiece positioning that I can actually change my lovely b flat sop in to an e flat horn. Even a slight adjustment throws pitch badly, which is an issue with the significantly smaller horn even when it is not my throw-away special.

Wow... I hope that any of that made sense.

~Nissa


[I came back after reading to say..]
Wow... I also hope it was appropriate. If not please let me know and I will move or delete it!