Audiences at Jazz gigs - musicians or not?

[Bruce Lindfield]

So, it struck me that the last few small Jazz gigs I've been to locally, I have known virtually every single person in the audience and the fact that they are all musicians - either looking for inspiration/help/ideas or maybe even trying to network to get into bands.

I'm not sure whether this is depressing or an unavoidable consequence of music that isn't really understood or appreciated by many, apart from those who have tried to ply it!!

So - what is it like where you live? Do you know if most of the audiences for Jazz gigs are other musicians or maybe it is completely different?

And do you think this is healthy, beneficial or depressing and the sign of a dying art?

[Underhound]

I used to suspect that because jazz was more of an acquired taste than other forms of music, being a jazz enthusiast would require a musicians knowledge of what was going on.

But now after lurking, and occasionally participating, in this board I get a sense that a good amount (or most) of the jazz fans here are non-musicians. I chose the "mixed group" option, to me it's just more optimistic.

How many fans in the football stadium have actually played the game?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Underhound

But now after lurking, and occasionally participating, in this board I get a sense that a good amount (or most) of the jazz fans here are non-musicians.

But do these people go to (many) Jazz gigs?

How many fans in the football stadium have actually played the game?

Well - most people play football in school......?

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Well - most people play football in school......?

No, most men play football in school, since you seem to be talking about the American sport rather than soccer. But is that even true of most men?

--Rita, who is going to a jazz/improv. concert tonight and expects to see other women there and hopes that this thread doesn't get into that one again and is copying Larry Nagel

[Tom Storer]

Depends on where you are. In big cities you'll get more fans than musicians, in small towns the proportion of musicians will be greater...

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by bluenoter

No, most men play football in school, since you seem to be talking about the American sport rather than soccer. But is that even true of most men?

Well - as I was brought up in England, the home of what we call "football" - everybody played football at breaks in the playground - even the girls!!

--Rita, who is going to a jazz/improv. concert tonight and expects to see other women there and hopes that this thread doesn't get into that one again and is copying Larry Nagel

Well, there were two women I know very well at the Jazz gig I attended last night - a pianist and an alto player!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

Depends on where you are. In big cities you'll get more fans than musicians, in small towns the proportion of musicians will be greater...

I was thinking that - so, although I live in a City, it's not that big and I know all the Jazz musicians, from playing or having lessons with them!!

But I'm sure if I went to a lot of gigs in London, there would be a lot more fans....?

[Peterdubya]

Since non-musicians outnumber musicians, I assume that most people at the gigs i attend are non-musicians, although musicians do attend.

[Gentle Giant]

Living in Boston, I know that the clubs are filled with musicians on and off the bandstand, but this is also a pretty sophisticated place, so there are a good number of people just out looking for a good music experience. In fact, if I have one complaint about the scene here in Boston, it's that the upscale hotel-based clubs are dominating the action, which means there are fewer places where you can go in jeans and buy a $3 beer while listening to quality musicians ply their trade. The average jazz fan may not be filling seats occupied by some fancy-pants dudes in town checking out the action in the hotel they're staying in. In fact, more and more big names are playing in places like Symphony Hall, which I guess is good for them, but for those of us who remember small, smoky places like the 1369 which was smaller than some of the closets in my house but had character up the yinyang, it feels like a loss.

Of course, if we ever get to a stage where only musicians are in the audience, the music will be dead.

[iris]

I live in NYC as well. In my career right now (early stages) my fan base consists mainly of other jazz musicians and non-jazz musicians. However, I do have a day job as well to make ends meet, so I have a small corporate following but it's difficult to get them to commit to attending a gig.
I have only lived here since June 03' so I think that this makes since that a majority of my listeners are musicians. I think that this is a good place to start. At least this means that other musicians like what you are doing enough to come hear you. It's like a validation. The con is that musicians generally don't have much money to spend so clubs aren't fiscally satisfied.
I think the key is to get the people who walk in off the street on a mailing and get them to come back to another gig. That's where the success really begins.

I don't think we should be depressed though when we go see someone play and everyone there is a musician.....you pay a cover so you might as well get your money's worth. Hopefully the music was inspiring and maybe you'll get to network and hook up with some other musicians. It may lead to gigs........and everyone who attends will be someone you know....becasue they too are musicians. Interesting cycle!

Do any of you have creative ways of reaching the public promotion-wise?
I'd be interested in any ideas!

thanks
iris

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

Depends on where you are. In big cities you'll get more fans than musicians, in small towns the proportion of musicians will be greater...

Where I live, the audience is a mixed bag or so-to-speak.

In general, however, many of those who attend a [albeit rare] Jazz gig in my Little Land O'Enchantment have some sense of music. Either through any various levels of musicianship and/or music appreciation via listening or collecting.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by iris

I live in NYC as well. In my career right now (early stages) my fan base consists mainly of other jazz musicians and non-jazz musicians. However, I do have a day job as well to make ends meet, so I have a small corporate following but it's difficult to get them to commit to attending a gig.
I have only lived here since June 03' so I think that this makes since that a majority of my listeners are musicians. I think that this is a good place to start. At least this means that other musicians like what you are doing enough to come hear you. It's like a validation. The con is that musicians generally don't have much money to spend so clubs aren't fiscally satisfied.
I think the key is to get the people who walk in off the street on a mailing and get them to come back to another gig. That's where the success really begins.

I don't think we should be depressed though when we go see someone play and everyone there is a musician.....you pay a cover so you might as well get your money's worth. Hopefully the music was inspiring and maybe you'll get to network and hook up with some other musicians. It may lead to gigs........and everyone who attends will be someone you know....becasue they too are musicians. Interesting cycle!

Do any of you have creative ways of reaching the public promotion-wise?
I'd be interested in any ideas!

thanks
iris

Iris,

You may want to read the CD burning thread: "To Burn or Buy (originally called Hank Mobley is Classifieds)"...there were a few suggestions made there on the last few pages.

FWIW...

TimMc

[iris]

TimMC,
I read the last couple pages of the the Hank Mobley thread; I'm not sure what you were referring to as far as promotion that could assist me. Was there anything specific that you read?
thanks,
iris

[stonemonkts]

I wouldn't know who was in the audience at any of the gigs I've attended. I'm fairly sure the night I saw Cecil Taylor and Elvin Jones at the dreaded Blue Note, there must have been tons of musicians in the crowd. I never bother to look at people to notice these things.

One gig I went to one of the players made a point to introduce Billy Bang to the audience, after he walked in during a break between songs. If he didn't announce it, I would never have recognized him.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by iris

TimMC,
I read the last couple pages of the the Hank Mobley thread; I'm not sure what you were referring to as far as promotion that could assist me. Was there anything specific that you read?
thanks,
iris

Specifically:

Nat Catchpole's post #'s 183 and 190

Rainman's post # 205

GoodSpeak's post #'s 188 and 204

[iris]

thanks, I'll check it out,
iris

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by stonemonkts

I wouldn't know who was in the audience at any of the gigs I've attended. I'm fairly sure the night I saw Cecil Taylor and Elvin Jones at the dreaded Blue Note, there must have been tons of musicians in the crowd. I never bother to look at people to notice these things.

One gig I went to one of the players made a point to introduce Billy Bang to the audience, after he walked in during a break between songs. If he didn't announce it, I would never have recognized him.

So - you never talk to people at Jazz gigs - during breaks, beforehand or after??

I'm surprised - if it's a good gig and they usually are, or I wouldn't be there - you can't stop people talking about it - after or at an interval break!

I would find it pretty strange to go to a gig and come home, without talking to anybody there....

I went to gigs on Wednesday and Friday - talked to most of the audience and all the band members!

[mke]

Originally Posted by Gentle Giant

$3 beer

$3 beer! The mind boggles.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Peterdubya

Since non-musicians outnumber musicians, I assume that most people at the gigs i attend are non-musicians, although musicians do attend.

This is not necessarily as logical as it sounds - if we were talking about all gigs - then yes it might apply - but we're talking about Jazz, where there is a relatively small audience base who are not necessarily representative of the general public.

As others have mentioned, Jazz requires some knowledge of the music and performance practice or gigs can be totally mystifying to the newcomer - like knowing about "the form", "reharmonising standards", "trading 8s/4s etc. with the drummer" etc. etc. - or may throw up questions like - what is the drummer doing - he's not keeping time!! Why is this song going on so long !! etc. etc.

[Tom Storer]

Iris's post indicates another parameter: name-recognition of the musician. Young musicians just getting started will have a lot of their peers in the audience, and few average listeners, for the simple reason that average listeners won't have heard of them yet. I'd guess the proportion of average, non-musician listeners in the club audience increases when a musician releases a CD, increases yet more when the CD gets reviewed in the jazz press, much more again if it gets reviewed in the mainstream press, and exponentially if the musician is ever mentioned on TV. By that time, of course, you'd be playing stadiums.

[stonemonkts]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

So - you never talk to people at Jazz gigs - during breaks, beforehand or after??

I never speak to any stranger unless they speak to me first.

I've been to approximately 75 gigs (not much, but all concentrated within a two year span). There were only two times when I spoke to anyone. Once when the musicians chatted me up before the gig, and once when a person sitting next to me at Iridium directed a statement at me regarding Nasheet Waits...something about how they liked his playing, iirc.

I'm not unfriendly but for some reason I never initiate conversations with unknown people.

[Pete C]

In NY it varies. I don't think you'll see too many musicians in the audience at the big clubs--and I suspect at least half of the audience at some of the clubs is tourists. At places like Tonic and other non-mainstream venues it depends on who's playing, but still the audience is primarily non-musician.

Mark Dresser, Mark Feldman & Sylvie Courvoisier, among others, are very supportive of their peers. I see them at a lot of gigs. A bunch of musicians came out for Fred Anderson last week. And when Muhal & George Lewis did their duo in NY the audience was a veritable who's who of the AG.

I've gotten to know a lot of the regulars at the downtown gigs--after seeing the same people frequently for several years you start chatting--and very few are musicians.

[iris]

If a jazz musician is really trying to develop a career I think it is pertinent for them to make an effort to meet other jazz musicians and be visible. Even the ones who are at a higher level career-wise. If you don't stick your neck out no one will know who you are. I am not however condoning name dropping. That's such a big turn off. This is a struggle for me becuase I am an introverted person, but I'm learning to work through it.
like pete C said I also think it important to support peers and to be apart of the music community that you want to be in. what goes around comes around... or at least we hope.

[pollo loco]

[QUOTE=iris]If a jazz musician is really trying to develop a career I think it is pertinent for them to make an effort to meet other jazz musicians and be visible. Even the ones who are at a higher level career-wise. [QUOTE]

When I read this, I thought immediately of Gerry Wiggins. Wig and his wife, Lynn, are frequently seen at the gigs of "visiting firemen" from back east, as well as at the gigs of West Coast musicians. This man is probably the most
beloved of the So. Calif. players for this reason alone. He cares, and others
know he does.
pl

[JazzCat]

I don't much care for the hotel venues. Seems to me like a bunch of rich people that have no idea what's going on. That's the few that I've been to though. Perhaps I'm way off. Don't know why they seemed rich either. They just did.

[Jazzooo]

"Don't know why they seemed rich either. They just did."

Maybe you just seemed poor?

I haven't followed all of this thread, but I tend to be relieved when there aren't a lot of musicians in the audience, frankly. Why? I'm afraid they'll be as critical of me as I am of myself--altogether unrealistic, I know, but still...gets on my nerves a bit. I deal with it though.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by stonemonkts

I never speak to any stranger unless they speak to me first.

I've been to approximately 75 gigs (not much, but all concentrated within a two year span). There were only two times when I spoke to anyone. Once when the musicians chatted me up before the gig, and once when a person sitting next to me at Iridium directed a statement at me regarding Nasheet Waits...something about how they liked his playing, iirc.

I'm not unfriendly but for some reason I never initiate conversations with unknown people.

Well, I suppose that's the difference, as I've lived in the same town for 30/40 years and have been playing music on and off within that time - so I know a lot of people, especially musicians, by sight if not personally.

I like going to Jazz gigs partly because I always meet somebody I know and can talk to them about music - nearly always the people I talk to are playing music in some form - if fewer are doing it full-time and making money....often the big topic of conversation!!

But I also like Jazz gigs as the players are alway happy to chat and get feedback - talk about music as well! Whereas, when I used to go to a lot of rock gigs in the 70s and 80s it would be the case that I never actually talked to anybody and there was absolutely no chance of talking to the performers!!

Whereas, I can remember, even groups as big as Dave Holland's quintet(s) hanging around after and obviously looking to talk to anybody who wanted to - and while I must admit to not knowing them personally - I certainly knew who they all were!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

Iris's post indicates another parameter: name-recognition of the musician. Young musicians just getting started will have a lot of their peers in the audience, and few average listeners, for the simple reason that average listeners won't have heard of them yet. I'd guess the proportion of average, non-musician listeners in the club audience increases when a musician releases a CD, increases yet more when the CD gets reviewed in the jazz press, much more again if it gets reviewed in the mainstream press, and exponentially if the musician is ever mentioned on TV. By that time, of course, you'd be playing stadiums.

Well - I think you have hit on the big difference between the Jazz scene in the US and the UK!!!


So - no British Jazz musicians are known to the general public or even the average music listener!!

I can go along to Jazz clubs each week and see great musicians who are doing stuff as interesting as anything I hear from the US and with just as much dedication and musical skill - but none of these people are anything like "household names", even if they are highly-respected by other musicians - so we have recently seen Tommy Smith leading a band with top US players, as just one example.

Tommy Smith - saxes
Joe Lovano- tenor sax
John Schofield - guitar
John Taylor - piano
john Patitucci - bass
Bill Stewart - drums

But very few people in the UK will have heard of Tommy Smith, apart from other Jazz musicians....