The Ratings Guide Poll

[crawjo]

I'm interested to know if people use either of the two major jazz album ratings guides in helping them to make their selections. Also, I'd be interested to know if you've found that you generally agree with the ratings, or have often found that the guide's rating for a particular album was too high or too low. Details please! Share your experiences.

[Sergio Zamora]

I use AMG online to find information and just to mess around (you know, find albums by sidemen, similar recordings, etc), but I'm cautious about paying too much heed to the reviews and especially the ratings. Whatever you do, don't trust those Olewnick reviews.

I have yet to purchase or read the Penguin. I should just get it, but I haven't.

[stonemonkts]

I've been a loyal reader of the Penguin Guide from day one. I was actually thinking of recommending it to you, Crawjo. It's been indispensable in terms of exposure to new artists, and of course helping point one towards the better recordings by each. I would say I agree with them approx. 75% of the time, which I think is pretty good. There was a time when I would buy any 4 star CD from the guide, but now I do a bit more research before pulling the trigger. I also enjoy their style quite a bit.

AMG is indispensable as a database, as Sergio pointed out. I use AMG online all the time to check for discographies, dates, sidemen, etc and so on. I also do not put a great deal of faith in their ratings, but it depends on the writer.

Alldirect.com has the best prices for the Penguin Guide if you choose to buy it online. In any case, you must get it. Trust me on this one.

[J.A.W.]

Originally Posted by stonemonkts

I've been a loyal reader of the Penguin Guide from day one. I was actually thinking of recommending it to you, Crawjo. It's been indispensable in terms of exposure to new artists, and of course helping point one towards the better recordings by each. I would say I agree with them approx. 75% of the time, which I think is pretty good. There was a time when I would buy any 4 star CD from the guide, but now I do a bit more research before pulling the trigger. I also enjoy their style quite a bit.

AMG is indispensable as a database, as Sergio pointed out. I use AMG online all the time to check for discographies, dates, sidemen, etc and so on. I also do not put a great deal of faith in their ratings, but it depends on the writer.

Alldirect.com has the best prices for the Penguin Guide if you choose to but it online. In any case, you must get it. Trust me on this one.

I wholeheartedly second the recommendation of the Penguin Guide. There'll be a new edition later this year.

[kenny weir]

I use the Penguin and AMG (at work, online) on a daily basis and would, I suspect, be quite lost without them.

My usage of the Penguin has changed, though. I don't use it as a buying guide, and I'm not really interesed in the star system they use. I'm far more interested in their prose, and the judgments, comparisons, insights and humor found therein.

[bostontricky]

I've been interested in the word "consensus" ever since I first heard it when I was 8 or 9, so I guess it's not surprising that I consult both fairly often. I am afflicted with the collector's mentality, so I tracked down all the Penguin "crowns" three or four years ago as a quick way of broadening my jazz collection.

What I would recommend to all in addition to both works is Max Harrison's (et al) two volume The Essential Jazz Recordings. EJR cites 500 (more or less) albums over the course of the two volumes, and provide a fairly lengthy review of each; many reviews in the second volume run six or eight pages. Some of the selections are admittedly arbitary, but like the Penguin crowns, also provide a very broad selection of material. The first volume could stand some reworking; I think the material was still organized by LP in the reissued version.

I'd love to put together a website devoted to this book, perhaps some (very) brief commentary as well as citing CD reissues of the works from the first volume. Someone has done the same for Len Lyons 101 Best Jazz Albums, and EJR would provide a more formidable challenge.

But I digress.

AMG seems to have some holes in its database, but I realize that is partially because PJG only cites works in print: can Oly enlighten us as to how certain JCers with too much time on their hands could contribute to AMG, at least as far as providing information for certain artists?

[Nate Dorward]

The ratings by Yanow, Chadbourne, Olewnick & a few others are fine on AMG; but there are also a lot of loose cannons, & it's increasingly useless as a review resource for free jazz stuff because most of that's now handled by the cretinous Thom Jurek. But as a database for personnel, tunes, &c it's great, though it does have its inaccuracies.

The Penguin Guide is still great stuff, despite a few quirks (in particular, while the four-star ratings are usually reliable, the "crowns" are uselessly arbitrary; & the current edition has a typo that afflicts many of the entries: ***(*) sometimes is a typo for **(*)....!). Unlike AMG its reviews & ratings are the result of collaboration, which helps, I think. It's also consistently readable.

[Pete C]

Never.

[Dan G]

The first Penguin guide was very important to me, as it was my first time hearing about a lot of European music like Parker & Brotzmann & ICP, etc, labels like FMP and Intakt and so on - what I predominantly listen to now.

I have all 6 eds of Penguin, but find now that I use them to help me decide what to listen to more than what to buy. I scan through one, look for interesting reviews, then listen to the albums.

As for buying - I'm both a completist and an experimenter, so I really don't care what others say about things. I just need to know they exist! The monthly update at Peter Stubley's EFI site is required reading, the verge mailout, this site, etc help me plan my month's purchases.

[Frisco]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Never.

Yeah, Pete! I find the whole idea of ratings ridiculous. Like someone has the ultimate word on what a record is worth? I've used artists guides like "The Rough Guide" and other encyclopedia types to get background on artists, but not rating guides. Just tell me about a record and describe it to me. Don't give me a pretentious number.

[lazarus]

I use AMG more than Penguin. Penguin are much to selective. A lot of essential recordings are missing only because there are no recent cd-issues on the english market.
For example they only list three (!!!!!!!!!!!) titles by Albert Ayler in the latest edition. Ridiculous !!!!
In the second edition of AMG-jazz they list and rate twentythree titles by Ayler.
I want a guide who lists ALL essential recordings by an artist.

[moneyp]

The Penguin Guide has clued me in to dozens of artists I may not have otherwise heard of. Not only that, but I like it when people write well about the stuff that I like, and the Penguin guys write very well, in my opinion. To me, they're an informed opinion, much like some of the writers on AMG and the members of this board.

[lazarus]

I agree with Mone that the Penguin guide is well-written and that they often gives attention to lesser known artists. It´s a good read but you need a complement because of it´s policy to only list currently in-print cd´s that have british distribution.
Jazz- collectors buys a lot of imports, oop-cd´s or vinyl in second-hand shops.

[Gordon B]

I bought a lot of great music after reading about the artists/albums first through the Penguin Guide. However, I realized after buying the 6th edition, that I've reached the stage of severly diminished returns. Thus, I recommend it for a relatively new listener, such as Crawjo, but question how much value Sergio will get from it. I discovered artists like Kryztof Komeda, Ganelin Trio, Gianluigi Trovesi, Mike Osborne, Dave Burrell, Horace Tapscott, John Lindberg, Tom Varner, and many others through their 4* reviews in the Penguin Guide.

AMG, especially the print version, used to be terrible but the quality of reviews have improved tremendously in the last couple of years. It's handy to use online and by now I have a "book" on many of the reviewers, which I use to take some reviews seriously and some not at all.

I voted for Penguin but AMG (online version) has a higher marginal value for me going forward.

The Penguin Guide is released every even numbered December in Great Britain and other parts of Europe. It's US release date is in the spring of the following year. I bought the last two editions from Amazon.co.uk.

I have a complete set of six PG's. The first edition is particularly worth tracking down used because it's the only edition that rates lps.

[Chris D]

I agree with the consensus that Penguin is good for getting somewhat of a read on players one might not have come across before. It does tend to undervalue many outstanding straightahead players like Kenny Dorham, and the duo's pseudopsychology can be strained. What they say about Sonny Clark, for instance, borders on the criminal.

[Brian Olewnick]

I've never used either. In fact, before being asked to write for it, I only vaguely knew of the existence of AMG. Since the Net, I've far more counted on the opinions of trusted contributors from various sites, first rec.music.bluenote and rec.music.classical.contemporary on Usenet, later sites like this one. I reallt only read other AMG reviews when I check to see if a disc I own needs one. If it's already been done (chances are by Couture, Jurek or Chadbourne), I usually read it to see how close or far off the opinion is from my own.

When the most recent print version of the Jazz Guide appeared, I checked it out in the store and was pleased to see that AALY was listed first and three out of the four reviews for their albums were mine.....

BT, you can try to e-mail Joslyn Layne (at joslay@allmusic.com) to see if they're accepting any new writers, but for the last year and a half or so, they've gotten very, very stingy on how many review approvals they give. Presumably they're cutting back expenses (they pay $15 a review), though I've never received any official word.

[Gary Sisco]

I read both but don't use either as buying guides. I use them more as research (sidemen, dates, etc) guides, and the Penguin as a browse read. Like Gordon, I've reached the point of diminishing returns so probably won't buy the next Penguin.

[steve(thelil)]

There are just too many entries in AMG that just give an impression of the artist generally and some player information from the disc's liner notes. To me it suggests that there are many reviews where the reviewer didn't listen to the album immediately before (or while) writing the review.

And to have star rating for thousands of discs where there is NO text review is to practically admit same.

If you had time to listen to a whole disc, you have time to write 2 sentences.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by steve(thelil)

There are just too many entries in AMG that just give an impression of the artist generally and some player information from the disc's liner notes. To me it suggests that there are many reviews where the reviewer didn't listen to the album immediately before (or while) writing the review.

And to have star rating for thousands of discs where there is NO text review is to practically admit same.

If you had time to listen to a whole disc, you have time to write 2 sentences.

Thelil, many of the early entries in the AMG were just as you described. However, most of the recent entries are pretty detailed. Brian knows better than me, but there appears to be a good supply of knowledgable music listeners who know how to write and are willing to diligently listen to new cds and write detailed reviews for a per piece salary of $15.

[Stuckinagroove]

AMG- one of my favorite websites. I like that they review jazz from small labels, seems as if you can find info on the most obscure musician. If someone tells me of a musician I haven't heard of, I always check them out on AMG.

I don't necessarily pay attention to the star rating, but I find a lot of the reviews insightful. Best online music source IMHO.

[gnhrtg]

I buy too many discs as it is and so would prefer guides that err on the side of omission. However, I find most ratings on AMG to be too high, both the stars and the praise in the commentary. What I would really like is multiple reviewers on the same album - and for that I usually ask around here. However the coverage of AMG, on-line, *is* extensive and I would almost always check there before making an order (whether I actually take into account what is said has a lot to do with both the reviewer and the genre/label in question).

[Brian Olewnick]

I've mentioned this before, but for those who aren't aware, the star ratings at AMG have to do only with a given musician's oeuvre and how an individual release "rates" within that group. ie, the best Coltrane album and the best Josh Grogan album should each receive 5 stars.

There are, imho, way too many "reviews" on the site that, essentially, consist merely of a list of tracks and personnel. I've replaced a few of them.

[gnhrtg]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

I've mentioned this before, but for those who aren't aware, the star ratings at AMG have to do only with a given musician's oeuvre and how an individual release "rates" within that group. ie, the best Coltrane album and the best Josh Grogan album should each receive 5 stars.

In fact, that is precisely why I think that many ratings, on the average, are too high. If it were an abstract and absolute rating, the merits of which are a different matter, then having as many 4 star and above ratings might have made more sense.

By the way Brian, FWIW, I've found most of what I've seen of your non-eai reviews exemplary (as for eai, I don't yet have much to weigh against the opinions of more informed parties such as yourself).

[Brian Olewnick]

Thanks very much. Appreciate it.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I have bought the last few editions of the Penguin guide and find it is particularly useful to us in the UK. I have given up on trying to get imports, as inevitably when I find something on an internet seller's site like Amazon - they delay and delay,saying it is usally available within 4-6 weeks or something, then say it is unavailable - huge waste of time!!

Besides there are so many Jazz CDs to buy, that I don't think I'll ever exhaust the Penguin guide and I do like the way it is arranged - so I can find all recordings by certain bass players for example!!

I do find their ratings very useful and the reviews very helpful and readable - when I started buying Jazz CDs I bought about 4 or 5 different, similar (though smaller) guides, but now don't bother with anything except the net and the Penguin guide!

So - how would you start buying Keith Jarrett CDs, to take one example, without using something like this?

[gnhrtg]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

So - how would you start buying Keith Jarrett CDs, to take one example, without using something like this?

So is this hypothetical or do you want some recommendations? Silly question I'm asking as the answer is the same in both cases, start a thread in Speak Out and see what you get. The laborious part, of course, is figuring out who knows what they're talking about or less offensively whose opinion is more informed. For that you would have to read around a little to find out posters' tastes and relative areas of interest/expertise.

(For classical music, for instance, I use the rmcr quite a lot and for the classical and romantic eras especially, hold in high regard Simon Roberts' opinions.)

[Bruce Lindfield]

Much easier to browse through the Penguin Guide and pick ones that have supporting players you know as good, have good ratings and from reading the reviews, sound like you would like them!!

[gnhrtg]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Much easier to browse through the Penguin Guide and pick ones that have supporting players you know as good, have good ratings and from reading the reviews, sound like you would like them!!

Easier it is. I don't, actually.

[shrugs]

I have 3 Penguin guides and they are all in storage.

[Thelonious Nick]

I've never used a guide. Although one might be useful, I really don't have a need for one. I have no problems buying more than enough jazz albums based on what I've heard on the radio (I'm lucky enough to live in the DC area, where WPFW plays real jazz), recommendations from friends, or just what looks interesting in the record store or on Amazon. And of course, just in the three weeks I've been looking at this site, I've bought a couple CDs from highly recommended albums I've seen here.