Thoughts on Matthew Shipp

crawjo · April-9th-2004, 01:07 AM

Well, tonight I've been trolling through the archives and thought the discussions surrounding a couple of Shipp recordings, "Nu Bop" and "Pastoral Composure" were interesting. I noticed that the Great Missing One, Steve Reynolds, called Pastoral Composure a pile of mush, and compared it unfavorably to Parker's O'Neal's Porch.

It's not that good, but I like Pastoral Composure. It has a certain stateliness to it that I really dig, and I especially like, though I'm a bit ashamed to admit it, the rendition of "Frere Jacques". I think Roy Campbell really shines on that recording.

Nu Bop I'm not sure about. I've listened to it several times and I can't decide if it's good or bad, or just so-so. And my opinion on Shipp is similarly shaky. I don't know quite what to make of his work. I have become a fan of the Blue Series, though, mostly because it seems that William Parker is on every single freaking recording. Does Matt Shipp ever play on record without him?

Anyway, just wondered what you guys think of Shipp, Nu Bop, Pastoral Composure, the Blue Series...hell, you can take this thread in any direction you want.

MRS · April-9th-2004, 09:27 AM

Did Reynolds really say that? O'Neal's Porch is far superior to Pastoral Composure in many different ways. Trade in both Shipps and get this.

gnhrtg · April-9th-2004, 09:40 AM

Michael - crawjo said "I noticed that the Great Missing One, Steve Reynolds, called Pastoral Composure a pile of mush, and compared it unfavorably to Parker's O'Neal's Porch." in response to which you said "Did Reynolds really say that? O'Neal's Porch is far superior to Pastoral Composure in many different ways."

Slight misinterpretation on your part I think.

chuckyd4 · April-9th-2004, 09:43 AM

I agree - I'm actually much more of a Shipp fan from his pre-Blue Series days. Seems like he's getting so caught up in pretentious slush about "mixing genres in a revolutionary conflagration of musical beatitude" (or something to that effect, re: Thirsty Ear press releases) that he forgets to sometimes just sit down and play. I mean I'm all for people experimenting and mixing it-shay up, but here's my problem: in all the interviews I've seen, Shipp and El-P and others doing these experiments are like "Well we really don't care if the jazz snobs don't like it, that means we're doing something good" - it seems to never occur to them that the reason a lot of these get mediocre reviews is because the music is, well, mediocre. If they took the hype down a couple of notches it would be much less annoying too - what they're doing is far less revolutionary than they claim, IMHO. You want a forward-facing, excellent mix of jazz sensibilities and electronics, with top-level writing, arranging, and improvisations? Check out Josh Roseman's Treats for the Nightwalker to cite only one example....

That said, I think Pastoral Composure and New Orbit were my favorite things with Shipp that I've heard in the Series. Tim Berne's The Sublime And. takes the prize for me, though (of any disc, Shipp or no, in the series). Mike is right, The Multiplication Table is a fantastic recording. I also like a lot of his playing with the Ware 4tet, much more so than the consensus on this board that he's become an unequivocal bore. I have really dug something about all of that group's records, right up until Threads, and I think Shipp is an essential element in them.

MRS · April-9th-2004, 09:50 AM

Well, he allegedly compared it to O'Neal's Porch, which is laughable. These two dates aren't even in the same ballpark.

Uli · April-9th-2004, 09:50 AM

iirc, the term that the "missing one' used to describe Shipp was "pedestrial."

MRS · April-9th-2004, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckyd4

I also like a lot of his playing with the Ware 4tet, much more so than the consensus on this board that he's become an unequivocal bore.

It's funny. . .four years ago the general sentiment was the exact opposite in this place.

gnhrtg · April-9th-2004, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Schaumann

Well, he allegedly compared it to O'Neal's Porch, which is laughable. These two dates aren't even in the same ballpark.

So that's what you had meant, ok, then. Fussy me.

chuckyd4 · April-9th-2004, 10:07 AM

Right, actually I remember that... but about the time of Freedom Suite, there were a couple of threads that just went to town on how "pedestrial" Shipp had become, with very few dissenting voices - I never suffered that crisis of faith with his work with Ware, only with some of the Blue Series electronic experiments.

Rob C · April-9th-2004, 10:08 AM

Is Shipp still curating the Blue Series? I don't think I saw his name on the last couple discs I got, The Sublime And and the William Parker Violin Trio disc...?

Gary Sisco · April-9th-2004, 11:27 AM

I think he's definitely one of the best of his generation, but he also chooses some to me highly questionable projects. I haven't liked any of his Blue Series efforts under his own name or the fusiony efforts with others. I also haven't liked much from the Ware crew in recent years. I liked the Rollins okay, but that's the only one since his first Columbia one years ago. Can't remember the title right now. The last two times I heard the Ware Quartet live (each separated by a year), I've actually been bored throughout; wasn't anything happening. Last time, Ware hardly even touched his horn.

So, yeah, I guess I'm in the camp of digging Shipp pre-Blue Series more than since. He can play his off when he wants to, though, and the other stuff is a matter of taste. There's no doubt about his talent.

One thing I can't dig is watching him play. Man, I get a crick in my neck just watching him!

stonemonkts · April-9th-2004, 12:22 PM

I can't speak on Shipp outside of Ware, but I definitely dig his work with Ware on Dao, Godspellized, Flight of I, and Go See The World. I think he provided a beautiful backdrop for Ware's playing, and also headed one of the very best rhythm sections I've ever heard on record (Shipp/Parker/Dickey).

danmmr · April-9th-2004, 01:12 PM

Some of Shipp's work is very good and some of it isn't. What I like about Shipp is that he is always trying to push forward. Sometimes it doesn't work but he seems to learn from that. But none of his work is ever bad.

IMHO, his playing on: David S. Ware - Freedom Suite is amazing. Definitely check that one out...

Armando · April-9th-2004, 01:39 PM

The thing that bugs me about the Blue Series stuff is that I don't get to hear Shipp really shine like I know he can. Sometimes his playing gets too repetitive and dull or the other stuff going on (e.g., electronics, rappers) gets in the way. I did like Equilibrium, though. Less fluff, more meat.

That said, I'm a fan of a lot of Shipp's work and always keep and ear out for his latest project. He's all over the place and, like Gary said, some of it is indeed questionable. But at least he has me, and several folks on this board, keeping an eye on him for whatever he's doing next.

Sergio Zamora · April-9th-2004, 01:56 PM

Aside from his artistic choices, a lot of people have issues with Shipp's playing style. I don't, at least not significantly.

Re: Blue Series. What's amazing is how much visibility Shipp et al have gained with the Blue Series, so in and of itself that's a good development. And I do think Shipp has some sort of vision of what he's trying to accomplish - he just hasn't been entirely successful in accomplishing it. I gave him a lot more props earlier in the Blue Series just for trying it, and I gave him time to develop the ideas. But I'm starting to wonder if he can actually succeed in creating a completely interesting work in this path. So far, I've been only half-heartedly following his recent work, and I wouldn't count 'Pastoral Composures' (which I quite enjoyed) in the same aesthetic category as his more recent stuff.

And I can understood that he no longer wishes to revisit ecstatic jazz territory as a leader, but I do miss the excitement of his earlier work, like 'The Flow of X'.

Other Steve · April-9th-2004, 01:58 PM

My opinion echoes that of most everyone who's weighed in: I admire Shipp's drive for exploration, without always enjoying the results. That said, Critical Mass, The Multiplication Table and New Orbit are my favorite discs of his, each of them strong and distinctive. Those, along with the solo Symbol Systems, are the only ones that survived a recent, gigantic collection purge.

MRS · April-9th-2004, 02:02 PM

Many folks have always lauded the 'A Train' on Mulriplication but that 'C Jam' is incredible, the winding solo introduction into stark chaos. Shipp's blood is up on that one.

Dan G · April-9th-2004, 02:16 PM

I prefer Shipp's earlier stuff (including the Ware band) more than anything I've heard recently. Haven't bought any since... I guess about 1999 or so I decided I had enough of his albums (and Ware's and most of that circle). I like the rawness of Zo (great version of Summertime), Prism I thought was quite good, and I agree with Steve on the solo Symbol Systems.

I should probably pick up some of the Hat discs while they are still available.

walto · April-9th-2004, 06:17 PM

As a lot of people know, I never cared too much for Shipp's playing. I think it was Jon who said (something like), his greatest talent seems to be in the area of self-promotion. I agree with that.

As one example, his pseudo-retirement was hyped almost to the extent of Garrison Keillor's or Michael Jordan's (first) pseudo-retirements.

Nate Dorward · April-9th-2004, 09:33 PM

Yeah, what "retirement"? He kept on releasing albums right through it.

I think the only one of his discs I ever owned was By the Law of Music, which I found rather cheerless & disposed of a while back.

Gary Sisco · April-10th-2004, 07:21 AM

My favorite is "2Z."

Frisco · April-10th-2004, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

And I can understood that he no longer wishes to revisit ecstatic jazz territory as a leader, but I do miss the excitement of his earlier work, like 'The Flow of X'.

"The Flow of X" definitely one of my favorites. You could look at that one as a great trio (Shipp, Parker, Dickey) with the addition of Mat Maneri, or the String Trio (Shipp, Parker, Maneri) with Dickey added. Or just a great Shipp Quartet offering. Good title, as it really had a great flow. Wait, a minute, am I confusing this with "Critical Mass"? ... Ok, just looked them up, same group on both, both great dates!

I thoroughly enjoyed all of the String Trio discs. "By the Law of Music" admittedly not "cheerful" but I don't know that I'd call it "cheerless", Nate. There's some beautiful music on that disc, as well as the "Expansion, Power, Release" disc. If you know Mat Maneri's music well, I guess he's not known for his music being cheerful. But don't you all enjoy immersing yourselves into some dark, brooding music every now and then. I think that both Shipp and Maneri can take a listener into some wonderful uncharted territories there.

How about the Homestead CD "Elsewhere" with Joe Morris, Shipp, Parker, Dickey? There'll be a trio set with Shipp, Parker, Dickey at this year's Vision Fest.

I'd like to hear more Shipp work with Rob Brown. There are a couple of discs where they work together in groups. There's 'Magnetism" on Label Bleu that came out pretty well and the Silkheart quartet CD "Points". A few years ago, I was in Guelph for their jazz festival, but on Saturday night Matthew and Rob were playing a duo concert in Buffalo, which is just about an hour's drive. Sadly, I couldn't convince any of my friends to leave Guelph. They worked so beautifully as a duo. Rob just exploded and his lines flowed off of every Shipp passage. The music jumped, swirled, and swung every which way until they both had said enough. One of the finest duo performances I''ve heard.

I don;t think that Matthew is done with acoustic, improvised jazz. I saw him and Parker do a duo about a year ago. As for his recent Blue Series endeavors, I mentioned some months back that I get them at our radio station (WHFR), and just put them out for the other hosts to play and hope that some new listeners will discover this music through that stuff. After all, I can credit (to some extent) groups like Soft Machine, Mahavishnu Orchestra, and Return to Forever for helping get me more into jazz music.

crawjo · April-11th-2004, 09:26 PM

Thanks for the comments. I'd like to check out Multiplication Table and the Freedom Suite. The one thing that impresses me about the Blue Series is its distribution...I see it carried in most of the Borders-type places around here, and that's provided more exposure for these artists.

Captain Hate · April-11th-2004, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan G

I prefer Shipp's earlier stuff (including the Ware band) more than anything I've heard recently. Haven't bought any since... I guess about 1999 or so I decided I had enough of his albums (and Ware's and most of that circle). I like the rawness of Zo (great version of Summertime), Prism I thought was quite good, and I agree with Steve on the solo Symbol Systems.

I should probably pick up some of the Hat discs while they are still available.

I just snagged Prism recently and enjoy it more than anything I have recorded after that; I don't have Multiplication Table, btw.

Dan G · April-12th-2004, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

I just snagged Prism recently and enjoy it more than anything I have recorded after that; I don't have Multiplication Table, btw.

I didn't think it would still be available, or has it been reissued on a different label? Mine is on some little punk label out of the netherlands or something like that.

Armando · April-12th-2004, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crawjo

The one thing that impresses me about the Blue Series is its distribution...I see it carried in most of the Borders-type places around here, and that's provided more exposure for these artists.

I saw a Blue Series sampler for $1.99, new!, at my local Borders. (On the other hand, most new releases at that place sell for $17.99 or more.)

Captain Hate · April-12th-2004, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan G

I didn't think it would still be available, or has it been reissued on a different label? Mine is on some little punk label out of the netherlands or something like that.

I got it when somebody purged it from his collection; and it's on that major label Brinkman.

Troll · February-18th-2009, 03:46 PM

I've been listening to New Orbit today. It's okay but doesn't hit me in the same way that it did when I first heard the recording. Sounds that were novel to me now sound repetitive or cliche.

I've always liked Shipps sound but don't have a very deep collection of recordings to judge his creative vs less creative years. So much music to hear....

ribot_for_president · February-18th-2009, 04:59 PM

I'm a big Shipp fan and I'm loving these last couple of releases - Harmonic Disorder, Cosmic Suite and Piano Vortex. His solo work is very interesting too, imo, though I'm not as much a fan of the Blue Series releases.

Gordon B · February-18th-2009, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crawjo

Thanks for the comments. I'd like to check out Multiplication Table and the Freedom Suite. The one thing that impresses me about the Blue Series is its distribution...I see it carried in most of the Borders-type places around here, and that's provided more exposure for these artists.

Multiplication Suite is a good one, especially for Shipp's deconstruction of Autumn Leaves.

I own 17 Shipp recordings. Some I like a lot, others bore me.