Marketing Tactics for Indie Jazz CDs

[Jazzooo]

There's been a lot of conversation about marketing lately in the threads concerning my new release, and I thought it deserved a thread of its own.

For the curious, here is one man's compilation of tactics. I know I'm not the only JCer with a new album, so I am going to lay out my plan in the hopes that you will do the same, and perhaps we can use each others' ideas to achieve as much as possible with our new projects.

Ready?

1. I tweaked my website (www.dougrobinson.com) to feature the new album. We also streamlined the running documentary "making of" website (www.thelisteningsessions.com/jazzooo.htm). The latter site caters to those interested in DIY recording (a large portion of my fan base), as it shows photos from the sessions, lists the mics and preamps used, and shows the positioning of the mics on each instruments.

2. Get some quotable praise from local jazz radio people and recognizable names like Peter Erskine, Peter Sprague, Mike Stern, Rob Mounsey, Jason Scheff, etc. I will use these quotes for press releases and also if I do ads in music mags. (The CD came out Saturday and I've only collected
a couple so far, but they're good.) Anything to lend a little credibility to a relatively unknown artist.

3. Create an easily-customizable e-flyer for our performances; create one for each gig on our record-release tour and mail out to Bay area friends and fans

4. Create an Electronic Press Kit--I'm duplicating at Oasis and they offer a free one from SonicBids.com. I guess I'll use this to accompany requests for reviews and magazine articles.

5. I produced a 30-minute 'sneak preview' of the album and got it played on VSPR.com, an internet station that focuses on artists who use the VS2480, which is the recorder I used. It was heard by several hundred people every night at the same time for a week.

6. Get City Hall to distribute the CD. This is the distribution company of choice for many indie jazz labels. I have heard mixed reviews but they seem to be the best available. I want this CD in dirt world retail--mostly for the ego-fix, I admit. I've never done it and I just want to know that people are not only ignoring my CD locally but all across the country and even internationally!

It's expensive, but my wife and I have decided to throw some money at this CD and see what happens. Eventually, you might even see it in a listening station at Borders. I'll be very happy to share with you the outrageous costs of doing such things.

7. Took the local jazz station program director several CDs and got myself on the air last night for one full hour, promoting the gigs, playing cuts from the album, telling San Diego stories and even playing a track from Weather Report's Night Passage (when talking about my influences). It went well, and they are going to use copies of my CD for call-in prizes next week, and possible for their upcoming pledge drive. Can't hurt.

8. Send copies to Bay area jazz stations to promote my June gigs. One down, one to go!

9. Send the CD to AMG. They seem to have short reviews of everything ever recorded except my stuff! If I can get a good review, it's something I can always point to and mention in my pleas for attention from radio stations.

10. Get the CD on Amazon.com, CDBABY and other online e-tailers

12. Go through Musician’s Atlas and send CDs to other radio folks--I've got a listing of hundreds of public radio stations in the US and Canada with jazz shows.

13. Get an article in the local papers about the new album and upcoming gigs.

14. Get an article in Tape Op (a DIY recording mag) about the Robinson Brothers. My brother Andy also has a kickass album coming out soon, which I mixed and co-produced as well. I think we'd make a neat feature--two brothers who work in wildly different styles, but end up putting out great stuff together.

15. Get some love from Roland, the mfr of the VS2480. Maybe it will just be an article in their user's group publication, but my hope is that when the folks hear the finished product, other opportunities will present themselves. Don't know what.

15. Write a review of the gear we used for DigitalProSound.com, an online recording equipment community. We borrowed a lot of nice preamps and mics to make this recording. Happily, I don't have to bend the truth one bit to praise the gear.

16. Get reviews: JAZZIZ, JAZZ TIMES, DOWNBEAT, Mike Metheny’s magazine in Kansas, etc.

17. Find a mfr for short runs of DVD-A, so I can market them to the audiophile audience. So far, I can't find a mfr for short runs of DVD-A--any ideas, Jon or anyone else?

19. SENT OUT personal INVITES TO CD RELEASE PARTIES--done

20. I've got a friend whose son just started at Wm Morris. Can't hurt to send him a couple.

Ok, what have I left out besides blowing the chairman of Warner Brothers?

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Doug, no publicist? How you going to get all those reviews you want to get.
And what about radio promotion. My disc got to #20 on the Jazzweek top 50 chart and "charted" for two months, which would NEVER ever have happened had I done it on my own (350 promo mailed by the way )

What about print ads?

Ok, THE BIG QUESTION, what is your total marketing budget?

[Jazzooo]

Hiya Mark--

My background is in advertising and promotion, and so far I've had my heels dug in a bit regarding a publicist. I'm pretty much over that, though--who do you use? I don't even know where to start. How expensive has it turned out to be?

Radio promotion was something I was going to handle myself too--emailing the PDs of the jazz station, then following up with a package. Dumb idea? It has worked with about 6 stations so far--the only ones I contacted bit and played the music.

"Ok, THE BIG QUESTION, what is your total marketing budget?"

As you can see from my above list, much of what I've done (the web things, personal contact) are low-cost propositions. I'm still on the fence about investing money in journal ads--I happen to know that doing only one, even a huge one, is only slightly more effective than throwing the money into a sewer. Repetition is what works, but that could easily get into 5 figures with just one magazine. I'm not sure I believe that it's the best use of my bread.

I don't mean to be evasive, but at this point I haven't set a limit. I imagine it will end up pretty low, around $3-$5K this year, but in drips and drabs. Would you feel comfortable talking about yours? I'd love to hear your thoughts.

[crawjo]

Doug,

Sounds good, but you forgot the part about your ass.

[Jazzooo]

I never forget about my ass. I just keep it covered more often than not.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

If you go to the "contacts" page on my site www.markkleinhaut.com you'll find the info for my print publicist and for my radio promo company. Email me if you'd like to know more detail.

My total marketing budget was about $12,000. Everybody loves the CD but sales suck! I don't know why sales suck, I hope you do better

[Chris D]

I see, Mark, that you use Groov to promote to radio. When I was a volunteer DJ, Josh was my ticket to a whole lot of independent CDs that I wouldn't have seen or heard otherwise. All of them got a fair hearing, and a lot got airplay.

[iris]

wow, thanks...this is just the info that I've been looking for. I've sent a few copies of my record to my top choices of jazz indie labels and am hopeful that someone will want it but am also preparing for plan B: release it myself. You've really given me some great ideas, thanks Doug!
iris

[Peterdubya]

Hey Doug,
We've privately emailed, but I'll second Mark's thoughts, you pretty much have to use a radio promo person.
I don't know why, but you do.
Also, it came up at the last IAJE, and I am hoping to devote a panel to it, but why airplay doesn't equal sales is huge....
A marketing co is pretty steep and there are 5 or so devoted to jazz, but at least if you can afford it, use a radio promo co...

for those of you who haven't heard it, check out Doug's CD.
He's not paying me a cent to say this, but it's got that special something....

And live video of Henry Mancini!!!!

God, I already miss Rightguy41....

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Originally Posted by Peterdubya

but I'll second Mark's thoughts, you pretty much have to use a radio promo person. I don't know why, but you do.

I think the answer is really pretty simple. Radio program directors and jocks get tons (literally) of unsolicited CDs in the mail, a hopelessly impossible quantity to even listen to let alone play. Using an established intermediary mean the disc has been pre-screened and comes with a stamp of credibility. If the promoter sends out crap his reputation will crater, that's all he has, so they are pretty picky about who they'll represent. It ain't just love for sale.

[Boris Badenov]

Burn me a copy, then if I like it I'll burn some for my friends, which will result in, you know, future sales and stuff.

[Peterdubya]

Originally Posted by mark kleinhaut

I think the answer is really pretty simple. Radio program directors and jocks get tons (literally) of unsolicited CDs in the mail, a hopelessly impossible quantity to even listen to let alone play. .

See, that's what gets me as a former music director of a public radio station (6 years) I didn't care if Groov, or Dr. Jazz, or New World n Jazz sent it. If it was good, i played it. Radio guys are getting lazy..... but I digress.

[Jazzooo]

Peterdubbya said:

"for those of you who haven't heard it, check out Doug's CD.
He's not paying me a cent to say this, but it's got that special something...."

Sorry--nothing to add except I wanted to read it again! Thank you, Peter.

"And live video of Henry Mancini!!!!"

Shhhh...I'm not sure his estate knows.

Boris--pretty funny!

Thanks, Mark--I'll go to the site. Just got your CD, and am about to go driving and listening, my favorite recreation...well, one of them.

[Pete C]

As far as promotion goes, you might want to give Jim Eigo a look, since he's a JC client. I don't really know him, but I've met him, and he's a really nice guy who definitely has the contacts. I first crossed his path in the 1970s when he ran a great record store in Greenwich Village called Happy Tunes.

http://www.jazzpromoservices.com/index2.html

[Dan G]

Originally Posted by mark kleinhaut

I think the answer is really pretty simple. Radio program directors and jocks get tons (literally) of unsolicited CDs in the mail, a hopelessly impossible quantity to even listen to let alone play. Using an established intermediary mean the disc has been pre-screened and comes with a stamp of credibility. If the promoter sends out crap his reputation will crater, that's all he has, so they are pretty picky about who they'll represent. It ain't just love for sale.

Gotta second peterdubya's comment here. Having done radio for years, an 'established intemediary' meant nothing (or maybe even less: why should I think some paid promoter is telling the truth. Hell, I've done pr, I can write lies that sound good). Comments from other artists meant a bit. But nothing (not label reputation, not guest artists, not previous work) beyond listening can tell a programmer if the music is worth putting on the air. I listened to every disc, and if it was good it got played to death. Some programmers/djs get tons of stuff, but not the jazz people. And the ones worthy of sending them to make their own choices, and don't just automatically dump them at the local used shop.

[Jazzooo]

Back on topic, please...

Mark K--your new CD arrived today. I'm only partially through it, but it sounds strong and creative--nice work!

On another thread, you mentioned your promotion budget and of course, now you have a lot of people saying "Why? How could you? "What were you thinking?" It's one of the reasons I'm always hesitant to mention actual numbers. I appreciate you coming forth, and so do others I'm sure. This thread might be a good place to talk about it further, if you'd care to. I would love to know how the budget breaks down, for example.

[Gary Sisco]

The best marketing scheme that's ever worked on me (and I spend nearly all of my disposable income on music) is live performance and merch table. If I dig the performance, I buy some CDs. If I liked the performance and the CDs, the cat has a new fan to add to his or her fanbase, as I'll be many times more likely to buy other releases after that. The same goes for sidemen. If I dig a bassist, for example, in one band, I'll often buy recordings just because he's on them.

Cats who really impress me, I just buy their recordings as they come out, unheard. I just automatically buy them. Ellery's trio, for example. Dave Holland Quintet. Robin Eubanks. Ben Allison. Dennis Gonzalez. Ray Anderson. William Parker Quartet. Rob Brown. Warren Smith. Hamid Drake. There's a slew of them.

It's been ages since radio had any effect whatsoever on my buying any music. Indeed, I don't even listen to radio. Haven't for years, apart from bits and snatches in a car, normally someone else's car. Ads in magazines, ditto. Reviews, ditto, apart perhaps from merely learning that a cat has a new CD I hadn't known about. Blurbs from reviews have even less influence on me than the reviews themselves.

In the jazz world, the best promo I've ever known or heard about is grassroots noise from other jazz fans, and musicians, and the best "scheme" is to play out as often as possible, for as many people as possible, and to always have recordings available at gigs.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Originally Posted by Jazzooo

Back on topic, please...

Mark K--your new CD arrived today. I'm only partially through it, but it sounds strong and creative--nice work!

On another thread, you mentioned your promotion budget and of course, now you have a lot of people saying "Why? How could you? "What were you thinking?" It's one of the reasons I'm always hesitant to mention actual numbers. I appreciate you coming forth, and so do others I'm sure. This thread might be a good place to talk about it further, if you'd care to. I would love to know how the budget breaks down, for example.

Hey Doug, I'm checking out your CD too and really enjoying what I've heard so far.

As far as the "whys" of marketing, it should be fairly obvious with any product or business proposition that you have to get the message out to potential customers that you/it exists, and ideally you do that with some level of compelling messages that leave your potential customers feeling motivated to buy. Much easier said than done! This can take lots of money.

And, as the saying goes, you have to spend money to make money. Most small businesses lose money in their first year, and sometimes it takes several years to reach break-even; that is, just to stop the red ink and not even talking (yet) about recouping prior period losses. The single most common reason new business ventures fail is because the do not adequately capitalize to cover these start-up losses and they run out of cash. It's mismanagement, a failing in the planning process. You can have great product, growing customer base and brilliant delivery, but you run out of cash and it's Goodnight Irene.

Now, when I spend $12K in marketing it is not so much about selling enough of THIS CD to get my money back plus a return on the investment, but rather as part of the long-range capitalization of my plan to reach a larger audience with my music. This plan will run it's course over several years and a number of different projects, all of which build on each other and follow an evolution, but the big picture is that it's all about establishing a presence. This is why I don't care if people burn copies of my CDs. In fact, Doug, feel free to burn as many copies as you like for anyone you think might listen. Seriously! I mean, I love the cash flow of selling CDs a much as the next guy, but getting my name and my music out there is still the primary objective.

So, but specifics:

Print media publicist: $3,500
Radio media publicist: $3,600
Post& packaging $1,050 (600 promos mailed)
Mfg. cost of promos $1,650 (@2.75 ea.)
Full color one-sheets $ 400
Print Ads. $3,025

TOTAL: 13,225 (and I'm sure I left some things off)

Note, I saved thousands because my wife did all the graphic design and layout
for the ads and one sheets (and the CD for that matter). We also saved money by stuffing our own envelopes and doing all the grunt work of mailing, etc. This is still very much a shoe-string operation for anyone who thinks $12K is big money to spend. This could have sucked up ten times that if I had it to blow (er, I mean, invest).

Is it worth it? Time will tell for sure, but in the meantime the CD did chart on JazzWeek for two months and made it to #20 on the top fifty chart, spinning three hundred times a week on nearly 200 stations at its peak. Dozens of favorable reviews have appeared in print and on the web, including major jazz media like Downbeat. Do a google search on Kleinhaut and it at least "looks" like I'm out there: "Oh yeah, he's that guy who works with Bobby Watson sometimes." I'll take it.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Originally Posted by Rainman

In the jazz world, the best promo I've ever known or heard about is grassroots noise from other jazz fans, and musicians, and the best "scheme" is to play out as often as possible, for as many people as possible, and to always have recordings available at gigs.

I agree with this 100%, however, the life of a road warrior is not for everyone.... a whole other story.

[Jazzooo]

"The best marketing scheme that's ever worked on me (and I spend nearly all of my disposable income on music) is live performance and merch table. If I dig the performance, I buy some CDs."

I can't argue that this is the best way for you, Gary, nor that it isn't a great way. Last night we threw a record release party for the new album and out of the 35 people who attended, about 25 bought the CD. That's a pretty high percentage from what I've been told, so no complaints at all. But...

This is a low-leverage tactic--you only sell to some percentage of the seats you fill. It is hardly an ideal approach for selling outside of the range of your bassplayer's gas tank and your drummers cranky transmission. I have found the internet to be far more productive for reaching listeners in other towns, states and countries. Talk about budgets--touring all the time is hugely expensive, and performing without extensive (and expensive) promotion is a fool's game. It's too simplistic to say "If you're good, then the word will spread," even though it is true. But there are a lot of other good artists out there...and most of them DO spend money to promote themselves. If I don't, their noise level overwhelms my appearances. And it's not they don't have good word of mouth as well, you know?

"Cats who really impress me, I just buy their recordings as they come out, unheard. I just automatically buy them."

I do the same thing, but less and less. I find that recordings are often too similar...or they are too unrelated. John McGlaughlin is a personal example. I believe in his talent and his vision, but I bought his guitar quartet album and then his symphonic album of a few years ago and was bored to tears. Now I listen at Barnes and Noble, or I request songs at the local jazz station who plays cuts from just about anything, and then I make my decision. And this usually occurs to me when I see a print ad for a new album in a magazine. Metheny still gets bought immediately, but not Mehldau.

"It's been ages since radio had any effect whatsoever on my buying any music. Indeed, I don't even listen to radio."

Believe me when I say I understand that for you, radio is meaningless. But also believe me when I say that it isn't for an awful lot of people. I have been turned onto at least three new artists this year by the radio here in SD: John Webber, Enrico Pieranunzo (sp) and Tierny Sutton. And people came to my show last night because they heard my interview and some cuts from my new project last week on the radio. For those of us who spend a lot of time in the car, and are listening to music that will get airplay on college jazz stations, it's the number one way to actually HEAR new music.

When I was living in Visalia where Goodspeak lives, I would have said what you say Gary. There was no jazz radio there, other than smooth. But here in SD, I can listen to three honest to god jazz stations, and I do. I am bored by 80% of what they play so I flip around a lot, but I do listen.

The listening audience for the radio show I was on last week (pretty eclectic stuff, imo) is about 5,000 people. I can't see how someone could not see that as a huge opportunity to drive concert tickets and CD sales. If you were a recording artist, and you had your choice to either play a song on the radio for 5,000 or just sit at home and stair at the moon, which would you choose? (Of course, you can choose to do both like I do!)

"Ads in magazines, ditto. Reviews, ditto, apart perhaps from merely learning that a cat has a new CD I hadn't known about."

Well, that is 100% the reason for buying ads and getting reviews. That's 'getting the word out' that you have a new release. What they say isn't as important as the fact that they said it, unless they massacre you. And even then, as long as they get your name right...I had someone buy a CD from me years ago after reading a lukewarm review in which the reviewer made kind of a snide comment about my Weather Report influences. Turns out the reader loved WR so he ordered my album!

"In the jazz world, the best promo I've ever known or heard about is grassroots noise from other jazz fans, and musicians, and the best "scheme" is to play out as often as possible, for as many people as possible, and to always have recordings available at gigs."

But in your rejection of radio and ads and reviews, you're missing the point that these are valuable tools in helping "grassroots noise" develop. They aren't for you, I understand, but they aren't unimportant to many of us.

[Jazzooo]

Mark,

Thanks for being so open about all of this. In which mags did you place ads?

[chuckyd4]

Good points, Doug. I think the real point here - which makes Gary's point of view admirable but a bit irrelevant for the listening public at large (even within the jazz world) - is all about market saturation. Sure some people will actively search out every new release and new musician, go to all the local shows, and only buy albums from people they know and/or get to hear live first. But the question remains - what to do if you are relatively unknown, and don't have the (even larger) budget required for doing a full-scale national tour to find all those savvy/selective buyers?

Basically, to look at your career as a long-term endeavor, and get your name in as many places as you possibly can. Unfortunately, as an unknown, this almost always requires large expenditures - even, as Mark pointed out, just sending promo copies to get reviews or radio play; never mind big money like Borders listening stations, etc. The point, though, is that many people are far less independent-minded than they think they are... market saturation can have very powerful long-term effects: you start seeing someone's name/album everywhere you go - be it in magazine ads you flip through, quick snippets on the radio, or reviews in a number of different publications - you will start to think that this album must be important. You can see 15 different negative reviews, but at the very least, that will pique some interest for the majority of people. The idea being that they may end up deciding they don't like your music, but that kind of a media blitz is still the best option for getting people to hear it who never would have otherwise taken notice.

In the past four or five years alone I can think of two or three specific artists who have invested in this strategy and seen it really pay off, regardless of what you think of their talent. I won't mention names, but I certainly think it is an intelligent - if frustrating and financially exhausting - move on your part, Doug.

[Gary Sisco]

The listening public at large doesn't listen to jazz, much less indie releases. My comments were directed toward the question of marketing indie releases, since that was the subject Doug raised. Clearly, indies need to take a different route from the ones taken by corporate projects, unless the cats involved are fairly well off to begin with. Most cats are not.

And true enough about the life of a road warrior, but if gaining a fanbase and hence selling CDs is in question, there's simply no better way. Ask Martin, Medeski and Wood, if you don't agree. Their pay off came after years of life in the van, playing any and all kinds of clubs, not just jazz venues. And from selling lots and lots of CDs to people at gigs. That's just one example, of course, but there are many more. The Greyboy All-Stars are another example, as is Tiny Universe and Robert Walters, both offshoots from the Greyboys. Road warriors one and all.

Jazz artists could and should learn the lessons of the DIY rockers. Ask Southern Culture On The Skids (or nearly any punk band) how many records they would have sold if they weren't road warriors, selling shit at the merch table. Life on the road is a necessity for most musicians, like it or not, if they want to make a living playing music.

Mark -- You left out a crucial statistic. How many of the records did you sell and how much of the cost have you made back? Most cats simply don't have 12k to spend ... on one thing, never mind marketing.

One other thing. It's not just playing out. It's also talking to people, genuinely, at the merch table and at the gig. People remember you more that way, and if they feel some sort of personal connection with you (however illusory), you'll have new fan who'll buy more records in future. Ken Vandermark is an excellent example of a cat who knows how to work a merch table and not just trade CDs for cash but actually engage with people. So's Mark Dresser. So's Gerry Hemingway. So are Greg Osby and also Jason Moran. Robin Eubanks. Ellery Eskelin. Ray Anderson. Joe McPhee. Hamid Drake. Dennis Gonzalez. Indeed, I've found that almost all of the jazz musicians I've encountered are open to real engagement with people who dig the music. It's a world that's different in nearly every way from the pop world, and hence so is the business end of it.

I once found myself standing next to a major cat (by anyone's definition in the jazz world) at the bar at Sweet Basil, where we'd both gone out to hear Eddie Henderson's band. I recognized him right away, of course, and overheard him tell the bartender he didn't have the bread for a drink; he just wanted to listen for a while. So I introduced myself, offered to buy him a drink (accepted). He seemed to be amazed that anyone would recognize him in public like that, but we had a fine time that night and have since become friends. Do you think I buy his records when they come out? You betcha.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Originally Posted by Rainman

Mark -- You left out a crucial statistic. How many of the records did you sell and how much of the cost have you made back? Most cats simply don't have 12k to spend ... on one thing, never mind marketing.

Well, it's really not a crucial statistic if you hear what I've been saying throughout this discussion. I've sold a few hundred CDs- so what. As I said earlier, I don't expect to make "it" back. It's a long-term thing- most "cats" can't afford to think that way.

Originally Posted by Rainman

One other thing. It's not just playing out. It's also talking to people, genuinely, at the merch table and at the gig. People remember you more that way, and if they feel some sort of personal connection with you (however illusory), you'll have new fan who'll buy more records in future.

Absolutely, and it's great fun too. Most of my CD's have been sold this way

Originally Posted by Rainman

I once found myself standing next to a major cat (by anyone's definition in the jazz world) at the bar at Sweet Basil, where we'd both gone out to hear Eddie Henderson's band. I recognized him right away, of course, and overheard him tell the bartender he didn't have the bread for a drink; he just wanted to listen for a while. So I introduced myself, offered to buy him a drink (accepted). He seemed to be amazed that anyone would recognize him in public like that, but we had a fine time that night and have since become friends. Do you think I buy his records when they come out? You betcha.

This story is so horribly depressing- it just brings tears to my eyes. I mean, there's this major cat who doesn't have 5 bucks to buy a drink!!!! What does this say about our culture and society? What does this say to the thousands of kids who are lined up to attend Berklee or a hundred other schools to study and become jazz musicians? Mama Mia, I think I need that drink now and it's not even 10AM!!! FRIG!!!!

[Gary Sisco]

True nuff. If you knew who I was talking about, you'd be amazed, but I'm not going to namedrop and gossip about particular musicians. It's obvious, however, that he won't be paying any 12k for promo for a self-release any time soon, or for anything else except paying the landlord.

Another cat (also world class in the jazz world) told me recently when we went out for a drink that his most recent statement from Gramavision had him down as negative 280,000 American bucks. We were cracking up over that one. "Oh, well shit. Let me write you a check so we can get straight."

[Jazzooo]

That major cat at the bar might have been trading on his celebrity and angling for a free drink from the bartender too!

The rise of MMW is a wonderful fairy tail story with the happiest of endings. Touring like MMW is not going to happen for 90% of bands, and neither is "catching on" like they did--if it was easy, everyone would do it. Maybe you believe they caught on because they are so much better than all the other groups who are more obscure, but then you'd be saying they're a better band than many of your favorites?

I never saw them live, but after seeing their name mentioned here, over and over, and also in print reviews, I took a chance and bought one of their early CDs. They got my sale just from being talked about, mostly online--and not even by people who had actually seen or heard them. Musically, it wasn't that interesting to me. When they hooked up with Sco, whose judgement I respect, I figured I must have been wrong, so I tried that album. I guess Sco and I just part ways on the magic of MMW.

I hang out with people who come to my shows all the time, and that personal connection is great, any way you look at it. But no, I don't think that talking with one fan trumps having your music played a few times a week on the air for an audience of 5000 jazz lovers (those who listen to jazz stations, not "the genral listening public"). Not if you want to sell CDs NOW. Yes, the loyal fans will buy your next one--bless them. But most of us have a thousand shiny discs sitting in our garages and need to move them, like, in the next year or so.

I also think familiarity can breed...well, if not contempt, something else that can work against the artist. Maybe this is one big commentary on my personality, but I'm not the only artist who hangs at JC who has noticed that very few buy our CDs here. My last CD, with Peter Erskine, Bob Sheppard, Dave Carpenter, Mike Miller and Peter Sprague, sold literally 3 copies at Jazz Corner. In contrast, I sold about 450 through the other music site I frequent. Sure, many JC members are into a different kind of jazz than they assume I make, but like...wow. 3 copies. And one of them was to Goodspeak who can barely stand me.

At first I thought it was just me. But over the last couple of years, I've talked privately to several of guys like me--even a couple whose names get bandied about as JC favorites--who sell almost nothing to JC members.

It doesn't phase me--I get a lot out of hanging here, and indeed I don't come here just to release CDs every two years. And sales of my new one (Two Days in November, available at www.dougrobinson.com!) have already outstripped my previous record (imagine that!). Hopefully, when people listen and comment, others will take a chance.

Or maybe they'll just wait till I play at a local college in a nearby town.

[Bruce Lindfield]

That's an impressive strategy!! I've met loads of pro Jazz players in the UK, whose only tactic is to produce a CD, get a big box of them to take around and then "plug" them at gigs - as in, "thanks for the applause, do you know we have CDs for sale as well - see me after the gig" !!

[Chris D]

Originally Posted by Jazzooo

At first I thought it was just me. But over the last couple of years, I've talked privately to several of guys like me--even a couple whose names get bandied about as JC favorites--who sell almost nothing to JC members.

Someone who doesn't buy through the site might well buy the disc somewhere else. I've never bought a CD through here because I prefer to deal with my local independent shop, which has a hard enough time making ends meet.

[Jazzooo]

"Someone who doesn't buy through the site might well buy the disc somewhere else. I've never bought a CD through here because I prefer to deal with my local independent shop, which has a hard enough time making ends meet."

Perhaps, but not in the case of the artists I'm talking about. I wasn't referring to offical JC artists.

[Chris D]

Originally Posted by Jazzooo

"Someone who doesn't buy through the site might well buy the disc somewhere else. I've never bought a CD through here because I prefer to deal with my local independent shop, which has a hard enough time making ends meet."

Perhaps, but not in the case of the artists I'm talking about. I wasn't referring to offical JC artists.

So how do they know who bought their CDs?