COltrane's Ole & India

[Pete C]

Different "national" flavors, but very similar. Are they based upon the same mode/pattern?

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Different "national" flavors, but very similar. Are they based upon the same mode/pattern?

I never felt that "India" was based on that country's music. I think it was more of an inspiration/spiritual thing than anything else.

[john williams]

I always thought India was very similar to one of the tracks off Coltrane Plays the Blues. I think it was either Mr Day, Mr Syms or My Knight. I can't be certain because I don't have it with me but I will check when I get home.
Edit: I'm pretty sure it was Mr Knight

[bluenoter]

Damn--I was thinking about "Olé" all evening. I wasn't thinking about "India," though. Whether they're based on the same mode, strictly speaking, ought to be an easy one for anyone who knows such things. They're both based on a pedal point, right? (I have no idea what I'm talking about.)

JBW--If I can find my "Mr." tracks, which are on a cassette somewhere, I'll listen for a similarity between one of them and "India" too.

[mke]

Originally Posted by bluenoter

Damn--I was thinking about "Olé" all evening.

As they say: "You are olé on my mind."

[gnhrtg]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Different "national" flavors, but very similar. Are they based upon the same mode/pattern?

I can't remember off-hand and I don't have my "India" with me. But what with the Mr. Knight reference I think they would both be based on the harmonic minor. The root I'm not sure, will listen to it when I get home and edit this message.

[Williams225]

Is the reference to 'mode' and 'India' related to whether the music sounds Indian?

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by Williams225

Is the reference to 'mode' and 'India' related to whether the music sounds Indian?

Mark--

Pete brought up two tunes, one of which is called "India." Did you get that part? "Mode" has a technical meaning in music, but the adjective "modal" in jazz (or certain folk music, etc., etc.) doesn't necessarily imply one of the "classical" modes, and I'm guessing that Pete was using "mode" in a fairly loose sense.

And I still don't know what I'm talking about.

Hope that helps!

[Williams225]

Yeah, I was taking it in the technical sense of the word 'mode' since that relates to Indian ragas closer than anything else western.

[Pete C]

I was indeed referring to mode as it is used in both "non-western" musics & modal jazz. "So What" and "Impressions" are very clearly the same mode, and I was wondering if that were true for "Ole & "India" based on similarities I'm hearing.

[bluenoter]

Re "Olé"

The following is by way of information-seeking. The liner notes to the old Atlantic edition of Olé Coltrane, by Ralph Gleason, contain nothing relevant (that's the edition I have). The liner notes to the fancy Rhino reissue of Olé Coltrane, by Neil Tesser, can be found here. Here's an excerpt from Tesser's notes, with a couple of passages that I found interesting highlighted in red:

This time, Coltrane used another folk-music tradition as his inspiration: "Olé," the album's 18-minute showcase, was based on a melody from the Spanish Revolution variously known as "Venga Vallejo" or "El Vito."

In both cases, as with "My Favorite Things" the year before, the saxophonist had arrived at a simple, elegant, and brilliant strategy of presenting his new ideas to his public.

Coltrane was pointing toward a system of improvisation that would no longer bind the soloists to the interlocking mechanics of harmonic progressions, but rather would allow them to create free-flowing chord sequences while playing within a much looser harmonic framework; frequently, this would encompass solo lines based on scales or modes instead of the chord "changes" found throughout jazz. In the early 60s, this constituted a radical shift in jazz and indeed in all of western music, which had made harmonic theory its crowning glory. But Coltrane found existing vehicles, already familiar to his audience, that he could adapt to his needs while educating his listeners. "My Favorite Things," Richard Rodgers's Broadway hit, uses relatively few chords and has a scale-based melody line; the same description would apply to "Greensleeves," which had become a Christmastime staple that most Americans could hardly escape come December.

"We had a very broad-based sort of concept," McCoy Tyner says now. "When John first brought in 'My Favorite Things,' I thought, 'The Sound Of Music? Julie Andrews? He wants to do this?' Some fan had brought it in and said, 'John take a look at this'; I think it was at the Jazz Gallery [a New York nightspot where Coltrane played often]. Before I knew it, we were playing it."

Coltrane used these songs as a bridge between his music of the 50s and the 60s. Earlier, like most jazzmen, he had haunted Tin Pan Alley and Cannery Row, concentrating on well-known tunes and song-forms; within six months of Olé Coltrane, his repertoire would include a song that stood completely opposite, in that it employed a one-chord drone to underpin the solos ("India"). "Olé" fits neatly in between: it uses just two chords in a repeated vamp that would have been familiar to anyone who'd heard flamenco music, seen a bullfight, read Hemingway, or even seen the TV show Zorro. This musical cliché provided a reference point, a way in to the music; once inside, listeners could better appreciate the significant deconstruction under way.

(Coltrane had a more immediate reference point of his own for "Olé." His former employer, Miles Davis, had released his famous album Sketches Of Spain in 1960 - a year before Coltrane made this recording - and it too had used flamenco harmonies as a starting point for sustained and frequently scalar improvisations.)

This reduced reliance on a song's underlying chord progression also liberated the shape and size of Coltrane's solos. A musician using a predetermined set of changes will play a solo of one or more choruses, which means the length of the solo will be some multiple of the original song; without those changes, the soloist has a great deal more freedom to determine the length of his improvised statement. And Coltrane explored this burgeoning freedom with performances of increasing length. For instance "Olé," with solos from everyone except drummer Elvin Jones and a four-and-a-half-minute soprano statement from Coltrane, was the longest track Coltrane had ever recorded (though it would soon enough fall to solos more than twice its length). . . .

[Pete C]

Thanks, Reets.

[bluenoter]

I ain't done yet! I may have to type in the notes on "India" by hand.

How did you know that my nickname is Reets?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by bluenoter

How did you know that my nickname is Reets?

I didn't. Did Bud Powell name "Reets and I" for you?

[Williams225]

within six months of Olé Coltrane, his repertoire would include a song that stood completely opposite, in that it employed a one-chord drone to underpin the solos ("India"). "Olé" fits neatly in between: it uses just two chords in a repeated vamp that would have been familiar to anyone who'd heard flamenco music, seen a bullfight, read Hemingway, or even seen the TV show Zorro.

I may be getting into a territory way beyond my head here ( and I have not heard these songs either ). But one thing attracted my attention. Listening to improvisational stuff is one of my things these days. "it uses one-chord drone to underpin the solos" and "scale based melody" seem very much like what those Indian classical musicians do with their raga improv. And it is interesting that Coltrane based his stuff on spanish music. Now I need to listen to that kind of spanish music to see if that interests me.

Would we at the end of this discussion come to a conclusive answer as to what 'mode' those two songs are set in? That will be wonderful.

Mark

[Williams225]

After all this, I think I understand Pete's original question now, meaning one of the 'different national flavors' is Spanish folk ( and the other Indian? ).

Here is one way I can partially contribute to the resolution. I can sort of identify a dozen or so Indian ragas by listening to it, look up the scale for it and map it to a mode.

Now, I don't have that album, is there a 30 second sample available somewhere?

[john williams]

Originally Posted by Williams225

Now, I don't have that album, is there a 30 second sample available somewhere?

Village Vanguard
http://shopping.yahoo.com/p__music_1921617844?clink=


Ole
http://shopping.yahoo.com/p_olé-colt...,x:1,test:DFLT

I don't know if they work because I can't check from place of employment (damn those pesky system administrators)

[Williams225]

JBW, thanks and the links worked.

Here are my notes.

In a couple of "India" recordings in that album, there is that drone like thing which sounds definitely like Indian Tanpura. It may not be that same instrument but the effect is similar, though that drone is played lot more in the foreground than in typical a Indian piece where it just provides a faint background.

The piece itself does not sound like Indian classical since it does not have the same inflections and I could not map it any of the ragas I can identify ( which is very limited ) and may be I need to listen to it for more than 30 seconds :-) . Some village and rural folk songs from there, which are played straight, sound like that. The sax itself, being played at a high pitch, sounds like an Indian instrument Shenoy. I have heard some poignant and sad moods created by that instrument and "India" comes close to creating such a mood.

Getting back to Pete's original question, yes, definitely "India" and "Ole" sound very similar and probably the same mode. In eastern classical that I have heard, songs from the same mode may not sound the same at the surface, but you have to get used to listening at a bit deeper level to recognize the sameness. But here, "India" and "Ole" sound similar even at the surface level.

Pete's other example, "So What" and "Impressions" are even closer together. They sounded as if they are pretty much the same song, from a melody point of view.

[bluenoter]

Mark--

I looked for sound samples for both tunes ("Olé" and "India") but didn't see any; I'm glad that JBW came through. However, I found some material about the mode used in "India" and other features of "India." I'll post it tomorrow!

Yes, it's widely held that "So What" and "Impressions" are closely related. Then "Impressions" begat Hank Mobley's "Chain Reaction," which I have on the CD Straight No Filter. You should listen to a sample of "Chain Reaction" too! If you haven't found a sound clip by tomorrow, I'll look for one then.

And I just found this at http://users.bestweb.net/~msnyder/rmbfaq.htm :

"'Impressions' - Check Lewis Porter's John Coltrane: His Life and Music for information showing the pieces Coltrane put together ('So What' by Miles Davis, 'Pavanne' by Morton Gould, 'Pavane Pour Une Infante Defunte' by Maurice Ravel) to create this work.''

Pete--

I've never heard "Reets and I." I have only vol. 1 of The Amazing Bud Powell, which it's not on.

Edit: [Wakes up] It's "Reet and I," isn't it?

[bluenoter]

Re "India"

The following too is by way of information-seeking, but it seems to fill in half of the puzzle--the mode used in "India."

David Wild's extensive liner notes to Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings contain nothing about "India" that's relevant. However, I found this paper, which draws heavily on Ekkehart Jost's Free Jazz (Da Capo Press). Here are some relevant excerpts from the paper:

A year or so later, on "India," modal treatment in Coltrane's improvisation is even freer than on "My Favorite Things," and he begins to display mode-mixture, as in Figure 4 below, which shows flats despite the established G Mixolydian mode, creating a bitonality with the pianist's chord progressions. . . . On the classical side of things, such bitonality is well exemplified. . . . Free use of mode mixture as in "India" can also be found in many classical pieces. . . .


Figure 4 (Jost)

In "India," Coltrane further extends his use of chromaticism to the point that he begins to play "around the mode more than in it" and the modal framework begins to break down: "No longer does the modal material bind the whole piece together; instead, it functions as a starting and landing point for melodic excursions, which are just one step removed from polytonality" (Jost). . . .

The bassists on Coltrane's India similarly create a process of "rhythmic disorientation" by bringing in "two-bar rhythmic patterns whose accent distribution often jeopardizes the fundamental rhythm" (see Figure 21 below)[,] which "vary throughout the piece, therefore constantly giving new impulses to the rhythmic flow, and admittedly contributing to the listener's insecurity" (Jost). . . .


Figure 21 (Jost)
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Re "No longer does the modal material bind the whole piece together": It doesn't? Coulda fooled me.

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by bluenoter

Yes, it's widely held that "So What" and "Impressions" are closely related. Then "Impressions" begat Hank Mobley's "Chain Reaction," which I have on the CD Straight No Filter. You should listen to a sample of "Chain Reaction" too!

Mark et al.--

You can listen to a sample of "Chain Reaction" here. It's the second track.
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See #20 for the info. I found re "India."

[bluenoter]

FWIW, a little more on "India," excerpted from a yoga site(!):

"'India' is characterized by a musical chant that never moves from the G pedal point, much like the North Indian music [Coltrane] was listening to at the time. Jazz scholars have found that the probable source of the tune is a recorded Vedic chant that seems to have been issued around that time. The melody of the singer on the recording is nearly identical to that of Coltrane."
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To me, it's "that drone thing," the pedal point carried by (at least) one of the two basses on each tune, that creates a lot of the similarity between "Olé" and "India." I'd like to find out whether "Olé" also has a G pedal point (or any pedal point, but I think it does). If I'm misusing "pedal point," I'm sure that someone will say so.

Also, I'll bet that Lewis Porter's John Coltrane: His Life and Music (mentioned upthread) contains some relevant (and trustworthy!) info. on the two tunes. I don't have the book.
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JBW--

I just saw a comment by some Amazon (?) reviewer to the effect that "India" is a variant of "Mr. Knight." (So did Coltrane base "Mr. Knight" on "a recorded Vedic chant"? Oy! I couldn't find my cassette of "Mr. Knight" and don't remember it.)

[Williams225]

Mark et al.--

You can listen to a sample of "Chain Reaction" here. It's the second track.

Thanks Bluenoter. I listened to Chain Reaction. Yes, the similarity to Impressions is very much there, especially when I listen to them back to back.

When I listen to Indian classical with my more knowledgeable 'tutors', every song becomes an intellectual exercise to identify the mode (raga) as quickly as possible ( like that name that tune kind of thing :-) ) and once that is settled, relax and enjoy the piece. Until that is done ( or give up and cheat, look it up since the discography usually includes the raga name ) there is always that musical tension!! And these guys and gals are just fans, many of them don't sing or play anything. Imagine the debate among musicians :-)

I was sort of in that mood during this exercise, though at a lot lower intensity.

Thanks, this has been fun.

Mark

[Williams225]

"'India' is characterized by a musical chant that never moves from the G pedal point, much like the North Indian music [Coltrane] was listening to at the time. Jazz scholars have found that the probable source of the tune is a recorded Vedic chant that seems to have been issued around that time. The melody of the singer on the recording is nearly identical to that of Coltrane."

Now, how do we get a hold of that Vedic chant from this very generic reference?

From reading up on Vedic chants, they are multiple millenia old early music with simple notes of rising and falling intonations that generates a spiritual hypnotic effect. It is a precursor to the Indian classical music but musically very simple. I listened to some vedic chant samples and it is hard to see a connnection to 'India' at a generic level.

I read that yoga site you referred to. It is interesting to note the Shankar connection.

[john williams]

Originally Posted by bluenoter

JBW--

I just saw a comment by some Amazon (?) reviewer to the effect that "India" is a variant of "Mr. Knight." (So did Coltrane base "Mr. Knight" on "a recorded Vedic chant"? Oy! I couldn't find my cassette of "Mr. Knight" and don't remember it.)

I am uncertain of the melodic roots of Mr Knight/India, however, I certainly recognise a connection between these two pieces.

I will see if I can find more info on this.

Interesting thread.

[Williams225]

I found a good recording of an instrumental vedic chant. Not the specific one mentioned in the 'India' connection ( since we really do not know what it is ) but it gives an idea. Absolutely enthralling though very simple.

http://www.hamaracd.com/hcdinternati...=Chitti%20Babu

look for the 9th cut "HYMN FROM VEDA "

Atleast worth a listen even if not directly connected to Coltrane's 'India'.