Kill Bill vol.2

Stuckinagroove · April-19th-2004, 07:54 PM

Fantastic movie, even better than vol. 1 Much more mature and developed this time around, with some depth. Well, by Tarantino's standards at least. If you thought the first was too violent and lacking dialogue, this one is toned down a bit, and theres some juicy dialogue.

The action is still intense and brutal, the fight scence between Elle Driver, and The Bride is one of the best I've seen with an amazing payoff. In retrospect however, the violence in this film is like the looney tunes compared to "The Passion". The dialogue, although not as good as Pulp Fiction, is great. There is a monologue delivered by bill regarding superman that will probably become classic.

Again, great movie. Along with Eternal Sunshine, I think it's the best so far.

Great line from the movie: "Bitch, you have no future!" (you gotta see it in context)

Jon Abbey · April-19th-2004, 08:14 PM

just came back from this, and enjoyed it. I think it's a bit unfair to judge it until it's released in one continuous movie on DVD, it seems clear that Tarantino moved stuff around some for the separate release, above and beyond his normal playing with chronology.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuckinagroove

There is a monologue delivered by bill regarding superman that will probably become classic.

I thought this monologue was unnecessary and overlong, it sounded like Tarantino speaking to me, not the Carradine character, likely the low point of the two movies for me.

Captain Hate · April-19th-2004, 08:34 PM

The prospect of Darryl Hannah with an eye-patch is intriguing.

moneyp · April-19th-2004, 08:57 PM

That monologue sapped the life out of the movie for me.

I didn't think much of either movie, but the second was much less cartoony and snide and didn't leave me feeling irritated. I liked certain scenes (Go Go Yubari and the inside of the coffin were my favorites) but there's a lot of crap to wade through to get to the diamonds. The various in-jokes and film references are either spread so thin that they become tired or are lame to begin with. I liked the use of color and monochrome, and the various film stocks, but Tarentino even manages to drive that into the ground.

It should have been one movie. Not one three-hour plus movie, more like two hours, with a lot of judicious editing that both films sorely needed.

Stuckinagroove · April-20th-2004, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

just came back from this, and enjoyed it. I think it's a bit unfair to judge it until it's released in one continuous movie on DVD, it seems clear that Tarantino moved stuff around some for the separate release, above and beyond his normal playing with chronology.

I thought this monologue was unnecessary and overlong, it sounded like Tarantino speaking to me, not the Carradine character, likely the low point of the two movies for me.

Well, I guess it was just me then.

bobetterblues · April-20th-2004, 05:11 AM

I almost walked out of the first one, as it irritated me to no end. The second was at least enjoyable in some parts and would have been a lot more enjoyable if it were around two hours or a little under.

I felt like the dialogue was way too self indulgent. And the homages took away from the film at times. It feels like collage art to me. Its like the difference between Prince and Beck. Beck feels so affected and contrived when he trys to be funky, whereas Prince is taking from the same influences but makes it more of his own.

The whole movie felt affected and souless to me.

mjb · April-20th-2004, 09:30 AM

I love them both. I gave myself over to them and was rewarded with an entertainement that was nigh on perfect.

They are remarkably different films and that just adds to my enjoyment of them.

I am not sure I understand the criticism of the "Superman speech" to the effect that it is not Bill speaking but Tarantino. That attaches a level of perceived realism that, for me, does not exist in either film. In any event, it's all Q and U.

Juju · April-20th-2004, 03:44 PM

Once u suspend ur disbelieve, this movie is great from start to finish. Now if ur expecting something that is was never supposed to be (maybe something less bloodlusty and more mature??), I can see how u could come away let down.

No other director could have done this with such a stellar synthesis of great American pop culture and old-school fu flick fashion.

Also, props to RZA for the great soundtrack.

Seems Tarantino pushes people to one side of the track or the other. Either you love him or hate him.

That coffin had me feeling closterphobic for sure!

moneyp · April-20th-2004, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juju

Once u suspend ur disbelieve, this movie is great from start to finish. Now if ur expecting something that is was never supposed to be (maybe something less bloodlusty and mature??), I can see how u could come away let down.

Suspension of disbelief wasn't my problem. I actually enjoyed some of the incongruities in the film (Uma taking her swords on the plane, the snow during the fight with Lucy Liu while every other scene with Tokyo shows a clear sky). I wasn't expecting anything less bloody or mature, either, since it's a freakin' Tarentino film and I'd seen the trailers. What I expected was a more dextrous handling of the elements. Vivica and Uma calling each other "bitch" repeatedly is about as far from the crackling dialogue of Pulp Fiction as you can get.

Enforcer · April-20th-2004, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mone peterson

Vivica and Uma calling each other "bitch" repeatedly

I haven't seen either film yet, but you haven't done anything to tarnish my expectations with this.

Easy to please,
Larry

Jon Abbey · April-20th-2004, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjb

]I am not sure I understand the criticism of the "Superman speech" to the effect that it is not Bill speaking but Tarantino. That attaches a level of perceived realism that, for me, does not exist in either film. In any event, it's all Q and U.

actually, it turns out that the gist was stolen from a Jules Feiffer book, but the point is that it sounds like Tarantino talking (or even someone in a Kevin Smith movie), not the character Bill.

I agree with bo about the general idea of his Prince/Beck comparison, although the comparison I always use for Tarantino is Jim O'Rourke, along similar lines, and I have more respect for Tarantino (and Jim O) than bo seems to.

"Seems Tarantino pushes people to one side of the track or the other. Either you love him or hate him. "

no, I'm somewhere in the middle. I thought his first two movies were very inspired to different degrees, and I said at the time I didn't think he'd ever equal them. I also still think it's unfair to truly judge Kill Bill until it's released as one piece.

I wasn't so into the coffin scene, simply because I knew she'd get out, right from the start, just not how. I understand that it's implicit in the movie that the Bride will kill all of the others and make her way to Bill, but I'm not sure why any suspense had to be undercut (in part 1, you see O-Ren Ishii already crossed off very early on, before you ever see her character, in part 2, Uma tells the camera at the star that she's killed everyone else and now she's coming for Bill), it bothered me a bit during those two sequences. even if it's implicit, I didn't think it needed to be explicit.

moneyp · April-20th-2004, 04:54 PM

I knew she'd get out too, of course. It wasn't the suspense about that scene that I liked, or even the way she got out (and I thought her climbing up beneath the ground looked ridiculous) but the general construction of the scene, where the light slips away with each nail, followed by several seconds of complete darkness where we hear the dirt being dumped and the Bride panicking. From a technical standpoint, I'm always impressed by the illusion created by these sorts of close quarter shots as well.

I didn't mind Tarentino foreshadowing the film's events ahead of time. Hell, SUNSET BLVD., one of my favorites, begins with William Holden's body in the pool. To me it isn't where the film is going but how it gets there. Additionally, suspense and/or surprise, in and of themselves, are almost non-essential qualities for me as opposed to the cinematic techniques used to convey them. The best films you can watch over and over again, even knowing how they end.

Stuckinagroove · April-20th-2004, 05:25 PM

Wow, tough crowd. I enjoyed the coffin scene, it was a great way to transition to the flashback of how she got her training (Pei Mei was hilarious). Yes, you knew she would get out, but the joy was in figuring out how she would get out, the setup was great. That whole scene freaked me out, the theatre seemed to get smaller.

I think the New York Times called it "The greatest comic book movie ever made". Thats a pretty accurate description.

bobetterblues · April-20th-2004, 05:33 PM

I'm in the middle with Tarantino as well. I really liked Pulp Fiction, Resevior Dogs, and Jackie Brown. I think if Jackie Brown was a little bit shorter it would have been a perfect movie. But of course that was Elmore Leonard's story.

Tarantino continually trys to be someone else. His dialogue was almost exactly the same, in terms of pace and speed as some of Kubrick's movie's. The problem is, that every scene he's trying to be someone else.

So, in the end, the character and style and art that gets attached to Tarantino is the fact that he takes so many styles and influences and puts them together. Which is fine, but in the end, I think it takes less soul searching and growth that some of the greats do, in terms of coming up with their own voice.

Like I said, its collage-art, which is cool and crafty in its own way, but it leaves me with a sense of hollowness. I just wish he would dig a little deeper and come up with a style that is more original and his own, than just taking from everyone else. Some may argue that he's done that, and at times I think he has. I just wish he wouldn't be so concerned and indulgent with the homages and influences and instead be more concerned with doing something I haven't seen before. He's a great filmmaker and I like his tastes. in actors and everything, but I think he could do more.

Jonathan Sutton · April-21st-2004, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

I understand that it's implicit in the movie that the Bride will kill all of the others and make her way to Bill, but I'm not sure why any suspense had to be undercut (in part 1, you see O-Ren Ishii already crossed off very early on, before you ever see her character, in part 2, Uma tells the camera at the star that she's killed everyone else and now she's coming for Bill), it bothered me a bit during those two sequences. even if it's implicit, I didn't think it needed to be explicit.

By my reckoning, The Bride kills precisely one person in Volume 2. Budd is killed by Elle Driver, and Elle Driver is not dead -- or at least, her status is uncertain, as the question mark over her name in the closing credits indicates. I do not remember exactly what The Bride says at the beginning to the camera, but does she perhaps simply say that she has finished dealing with the others, and is moving on to Bill?

One thing I have not seen remarked upon is how the bleeping out of The Bride's name in Volume 1 turns out to be not what one might have thought. That is, the first things that Bill says at the beginning of Vol 1 (repeated at the beginning of V2) reveal her name -- one just didn't realize that it was her name at the time. This, I liked a lot, but I can see why it is also precisely the kind of thing that would inspire exasperation with Tarantino in many.

Jon Abbey · April-21st-2004, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonathan Sutton

By my reckoning, The Bride kills precisely one person in Volume 2. Budd is killed by Elle Driver, and Elle Driver is not dead -- or at least, her status is uncertain, as the question mark over her name in the closing credits indicates. I do not remember exactly what The Bride says at the beginning to the camera, but does she perhaps simply say that she has finished dealing with the others, and is moving on to Bill?

right, I thought of that, but didn't feel like making my post more complex.

Quote:

One thing I have not seen remarked upon is how the bleeping out of The Bride's name in Volume 1 turns out to be not what one might have thought. That is, the first things that Bill says at the beginning of Vol 1 (repeated at the beginning of V2) reveal her name -- one just didn't realize that it was her name at the time. This, I liked a lot, but I can see why it is also precisely the kind of thing that would inspire exasperation with Tarantino in many.

yeah, I talked about this on another board, I thought it was clever, yet self-conscious and overly distracting for little reason. if you want the viewers to not know that "Kiddo" is her name until late in part 2, then figure out a way for the characters not to say it until that.

mjb · April-21st-2004, 11:21 AM

Whatever else may be said, I think it is fair to say that there are not many commercial films that would (or could) produce this type of discussion/debate/disagreement.

As my friends, acquaintances and others get to see it, the demarcation between quite vehemently held opinions is interesting and so some extent, illuminating.

Sergio Zamora · April-21st-2004, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

if you want the viewers to not know that "Kiddo" is her name until late in part 2, then figure out a way for the characters not to say it until that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the name get revealed just about when she found Bill and she found out she had a kid? Maybe I'm giving Tarantino too much credit, but is it possible it was only at that point (when she took on the role of 'Mommy') that she becomes a complete person again? Prior to that, she's more of a revenge-seeking zombie. This is pure speculation from my part.

Sergio Zamora · April-21st-2004, 01:02 PM

Btw, while I too felt it could use a little more creative cutting, I really enjoyed it. I seek v1 right before going to the the theater, so that really helped set the mood. The films are very complementary, and in retrospect it does seem like v1 was a neat, viscerally charged prologue to the meat of the story in v2.

Scenes I would have cut if I were Auteur for a day:

A good chunk of the Madsen/nudie bar scene
Most of the Mexican pimp scene.

They were cute, but really didn't add much and the latter especially seemed poorly timed and somewhat disruptive of the storyline.

On the other hand, the cruel tutelage chapter, which might have been disruptive, was very fun to watch. Oh, and what's with all the Chiba-bashing? I thought Sonny was great, and while the scene didn't add a whole lot, it was still a good scene, and it didn't seem long to me at all.

Jon Abbey · April-21st-2004, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the name get revealed just about when she found Bill and she found out she had a kid? Maybe I'm giving Tarantino too much credit, but is it possible it was only at that point (when she took on the role of 'Mommy') that she becomes a complete person again? Prior to that, she's more of a revenge-seeking zombie. This is pure speculation from my part.

good point, I'll buy that explanation, I didn't see it in any of the Tarantino interviews I've read yet. I still think it would have been more subtle and effective to just not use her name until then, but Tarantino's certainly never been one for subtlety.

yes, much love for Sonny Chiba and Gordon Liu even more. did you see that Liu played O-Ren Ishii's henchman in part 1, and then Pei Mei, or whatever his name was, in part 2? I need to check out 1 or 2 of those Liu/Shaw Brothers movies from back in the day, I think.

Juju · April-21st-2004, 01:47 PM

I'd also like to add that I was completely surprised by the LACK of killing in the second one, which caught me off guard. I had expected another bloodbath such as the first one. In fact, if I can recall, not one person died by the sting of the sword in the second one. Not one of the deaths come in a "traditional" way.

One thing is for sure, Tarantino usually delivers the unexpected. To be a critic, however, he takes chances in this film with editing, dialog and logic that doesn't always completely work, but I commend him for it. I grade the movie a B+. Great movie, but I think it won't be remembered by many in the long run, except for the beautiful women. That being said, it's still easily re-watchable and worthy of its hype. IMHO - but then again I am a big fan of fu flicks.

BTW, "Shogun Assasins" the movie both Kiddo and daughter watch is a classic. Good to see Tarantino is interested in the old fu flicks.

Jonathan Sutton · April-21st-2004, 01:56 PM

Following Uma's seeming near invincibility with the sword in V1, I liked the fact that she was felled by Budd, a complete loser, with a really crappy (if very nasty) weapon in the first confrontation of V2.

Sergio Zamora · April-21st-2004, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

did you see that Liu played O-Ren Ishii's henchman in part 1, and then Pei Mei, or whatever his name was, in part 2? I need to check out 1 or 2 of those Liu/Shaw Brothers movies from back in the day, I think.

Yeah, he was great. The Pai Mei role was originally to be played by Tarantino. Fortunately for us, he made the wise choice of limiting his appearance to an anonymous Crazy 88.

moneyp · April-21st-2004, 02:05 PM

It was fine seeing Sonny Chiba and Gordon Liu Chia Hui again.

Jon, if you haven't seen them, two to get are Master Killer (aka 36th Chamber of Shaolin, the movie I think the Wu-Tang Clan took their first album title from) and 8 Diagram Pole Fighter, both starring ol' Gordon. And keep in mind that these things are often more fondly recalled than experienced, but both are fun.

Jon Abbey · April-21st-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

Yeah, he was great. The Pai Mei role was originally to be played by Tarantino. Fortunately for us, he made the wise choice of limiting his appearance to an anonymous Crazy 88.

holy cow, that would have been one of the worst casting decisions in history. nice to see he's not afflicted with Woody Allen syndrome...

and as all Wu-Tang fans know, the part of Shogun Assassin you hear during the movie is the same clip that GZA's Liquid Swords record starts with, personally my favorite Wu-Tang release.

I plan on picking up a copy of this soon:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...Fencoding=UTF8

moneyp · April-21st-2004, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Juju

BTW, "Shogun Assasins" the movie both Kiddo and daughter watch is a classic. Good to see Tarantino is interested in the old fu flicks.

It's even better in the original "Lone Wolf and Cub" series format, which should finally be making an appearance on DVD with a big screen adaptation (directed by Darren Aronofsky!) in the works.

Sergio Zamora · April-21st-2004, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mone peterson

It's even better in the original "Lone Wolf and Cub" series format...

Again, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I kinda thought the ending hinted at a 'Lone Wolf and Cub' future for Beatrix and BB

moneyp · April-21st-2004, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

Again, maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I kinda thought the ending hinted at a 'Lone Wolf and Cub' future for Beatrix and BB

Ah, I don't know about that. I think Tarentino just drew a parallel between the parent killer and the infant, not necessarily suggested that it was an implied future.

Deke · April-21st-2004, 09:08 PM

Wasn't this supposed to be a homage to Hong-Kong cinema?

He got it all wrong then. The 2nd part should have been a different story in a different genre, and starring different actors....

HLJ · April-21st-2004, 10:59 PM

I enjoyed KB2 but I like KB1 better less talk more action.I thought the fight between The Bride and Vivica Fox in 1 was better than the Bride v Hannah in 2.In the Superman rap I thought Bill was just saying most people try to play Superman while they are really just a bunch of Clark Kents.Does anbody know why The Bride became an assasin in the first place?Was it because Bill had her nose open?Peace and all that.