Cannonball or Coltrane?

[nthapocket]

Who do you think is better. personally I thtink overall Coltrane is but Cannonball is a way better bebop soloist.
Who do you think?

[crawjo]

It's not even close, in my opinion.

[Harold_Z]

Both were great but I have to say that on records made with both aboard, it is Cannon that gets and keeps my attention more than Trane.

I usually don't really dig "whose better" scenes, espescially when it's two greats of Jazz like this...I'm glad I can listen to both of them, but in this case think Cannon has been somewhat shortchanged and Trane somewhat deified.

[crawjo]

I think that's unfair to Coltrane though. He really hit his peak after the records he made with Cannonball, whereas I'm not sure that Cannonball really took his music anywhere after his encounters with Trane. Of course, others can and will disagree.

[Harold_Z]

I agree - Trane hit his peak after his encounters with Cannon. I took the original question to be in regards to the records the two made together, but the discussion can go anywhere it goes.

For me the Trane records I feel show him to the best advantage are the Atlantics thru the Impulse things up to around A Love Supreme or so. I haven't really been able to enjoy things like OM. I'm not saying there's nothing good there - only it's not connecting with me.

Cannon was fully formed when they played together and kind of layed in the cut and grooved on out from then to his demise. Cutting edge? I guess not.
Very satisfying? Yes.

[Pete C]

[stonemonkts]

Hahaha. That's a great picture. I was going to post a simple sentence last night saying the same.

While I'm here, I'll state that imo Coltrane and Adderley were equally brilliant when they played together in Miles' sextet .

[mke]

Originally Posted by nthapocket

Cannonball is a way better bebop soloist.

I've read similar sentiments several times now. Is there a consensus that Coltrane was never such a good/great bebop player?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by mke

I've read similar sentiments several times now. Is there a consensus that Coltrane was never such a good/great bebop player?

My take is that Trane had a rather long apprenticeship, and that by the time he had become a truly mature soloist (ca. 1957) he was beyond bebop.

I like his playing on the Cookin'/Workin'/Steamin'/Relaxin' sessions (1956), but I find him rather weak on Round About Midnight and the first Prestige Miles quintet date (both recorded 1955).

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I think Cannonball doesn't get the respect he deserves, but I'm not going to say who's better than whom. I think Cannon was more of a natural while Trane was more adventurous, but that's kind of obvious.

The one advantage I think Cannon had was a sense of elation in his playing. He swung so hard, and the feeling of the blues when he soloed would lift my spirits in ways no other jazz musician has.

However, Coltrane is special. His experimentation. The way he eventually transcended jazz to become somewhat a musical and cultural icon. These things separate Trane form the pack.

[BFrank]

Who's better: Jimi Hendrix or Andres Segovia?

[shrugs]

Straight Street, baby

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by BFrank

Who's better: Jimi Hendrix or Andres Segovia?

That's a much more extreme dichotomy. Hendrix/Clapton, maybe.

[BFrank]

Hendrix is better.

Actually, what I meant to say was..........why do I have to decide? Can't I like both/all of them?

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by BFrank

Hendrix is better.

Actually, what I meant to say was..........why do I have to decide? Can't I like both/all of them?

No. You have to decide. The reason is because there is only one correct answer. It must be either Coltrane or Cannonball. No room for subjectivity. If it's Coltrane, then everyone who likes Cannonball is WRONG, WRONG I TELL YOU! And vice versa.

And why do you have to decide? Because one day someone is going to burst into your house, and put a loaded gun to your head. And he's going to scream, "ALL RIGHT, BITCH, NOW WHO IS IT??? CANNONBALL OR COLTRANE? ANSWER ME GODDAMN IT!!!" If you answer correctly, he'll put the gun away, say "Very good" and then walk out of your life forever. If you answer incorrectly, pieces of your brains and skull will be blasted all over your living room.

So, as you can see, it is absolutely essential that you decide this question, and NOW. Because you never know when this guy is going to show up. Could be tomorrow. Could be next week. Could be in thirty years. But he WILL show up.

Consider yourself warned.

[Sergio Zamora]

Better at what?

[crawjo]

...And believe me on this one, I should know. Just last week, this man showed up at my home and put a loaded gun to my head and screamed "ALL RIGHT, BITCH! WHICH SITCOM WAS BETTER, CHEERS OR THE COSBY SHOW??? ANSWER ME GODDAMNIT!"

Fortunately, a dear, dear friend had alerted me to this in advance, so I knew the answer I had to give. I knew I couldn't say "better in what sense?" because that would mean instant death. I gave my answer. It was the right one. He left.

But he'll be back.

[Thelonious Nick]

I think Coltrane was the better, deeper player. But I have to be in the right mood to listen to him. Cannonball I can put in the CD player any time and enjoy.

And the Cosby Show.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

Better at what?

The initial poster finds Cannonball to be better at playing bebop.

Also, I don't think that saying one is better than the other (in whatever sense) is the same as having to choose only one to like.

[BFrank]

You're killin' me crawjo!

I almost fell outta my chair here at work.

[john williams]

Ok, Coltrane.

[mke]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Because one day someone is going to burst into your house, and put a loaded gun to your head.

So it's safe to assume your 50-CD travel case is already packed?

[LeMo]

Sonny Rollins.

Originally Posted by crawjo

one day someone is going to burst into your house, and put a loaded gun to your head. And he's going to scream, "ALL RIGHT, BITCH, NOW WHO IS IT??? CANNONBALL OR COLTRANE? ANSWER ME GODDAMN IT!!!"

That's me man, just me! Ask mke, if you don't believe it.

[baksheesh]

Up for Latty

[lonely-at-the-top]

Well thank you very much indeed, sheesh! No poll?

Answer: yes

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by lonely-at-the-top

Well thank you very much indeed, sheesh! No poll?

Answer: yes

Snrf! Snrf!

Why don't you put one together Latty old chap? You gots to do it sometime, and it's as easy as pie! Just be careful how you word the question, 'cos take it from me, some folks can be relied on to point out any deficiencies in that regard!
Oh man, I'm really looking forward to that poll now!

[lonely-at-the-top]

..almost see you shiver with excitement

[baksheesh]

Well, what are you waiting for old chap? Bring it on!

[BlueMiles]

It is ridiculous to make a choice. Jazz is rich for having two such great figures, and we are lucky they recorded together a few times.

I think I liked Cannonball more when I was first getting into jazz (early 80s). However, I knew of Trane's iconic status, and began to collect his work earnestly. I have lately embarked on a rediscovery of Cannonball. Besides the funky stuff, he did a lot of other things--big band with Gil Evans, Brazilian stuff (which I have not heard), more senstive stuff with Bill Evans, and the late period quintent seemed to go, if somewhat tentavively, in various directions (modal, free, fusion).

While not an innonvator on the level of Miles and Trane, there's an awful lot to his stuff worth hearing.

Then there's that special joy and exuberance found in his playing.

[Xavier]

Well stated - gotta agree if I gotta choose. But they're both fantastic.