Ex-NFL star Tillman killed in Afghanistan

[Chris D]

He made a lot of headlines when he enlisted, and he didn't want to talk about it, which pointed out that Pat Tillman was not a glory hound. From the wires:

Pat Tillman, who walked away from his professional football career to join the Army Rangers, was killed in Afghanistan, U.S. officials said Friday.

He was 27.

The officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said a formal announcement was expected later in the day. Spokesmen at the Pentagon and U.S. Army declined comment.

Tillman was said to have been killed in an ambush.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Chris D

He made a lot of headlines when he enlisted, and he didn't want to talk about it, which pointed out that Pat Tillman was not a glory hound. From the wires:

Pat Tillman, who walked away from his professional football career to join the Army Rangers, was killed in Afghanistan, U.S. officials said Friday.

He was 27.

The officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, said a formal announcement was expected later in the day. Spokesmen at the Pentagon and U.S. Army declined comment.

Tillman was said to have been killed in an ambush.

CNN did a short bio on Tillman, just now.

[moneyp]

Interesting that his brother was in the same platoon. I take it the Army is no longer following the rule (most prominently mentioned in Saving Private Ryan) where siblings are split up?

[Juju]

Very sad to hear. I remember hearing him in an interview on Jim Rome radio show and thinking he was a very good guy. Who woulda done the same thing? No one I can think of.

Just drives home the seriousness of some choices our government as well as our personal choices can have.

[crawjo]

Andrew Sullivan named him Man of the Year, or something to that effect, in 2002, for what he did.

I don't know anything about Tillman, really, but this is very sad news.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

crawjo,

Basically everyone's amazed that the guy gave up a milions in salary, playing football in the NFL, to not only join the military (Riddick Bowe tried the Marines but quit real quick) but to go into the Special Forces. this wasn't a Joe Louis type of situation where there was no chance of combat.

At the time Tillman announced he was joining the military, I figured it was some type of macho thing. Mainly because he going Special Forces. There's joining the Army and then there's joining the Special Forces. Pretty intense. They are the elite combat soldiers.

I'm sorry the dude's dead. I'm just hoping that no one's thinking his sacrifice was greater than all the other troops that have died over there.

[Tanager]

He actually wasn't in the Special Forces, I don't think - he was in the Rangers. You have to serve as a Ranger before you can get tapped for Special Forces, and you usually have to serve for a long time before you get the call. You don't so much apply as get selected to apply.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Tanager,

Gotcha. I knew it was either Special Forces, Rangers, or Green Berets (if they're still around).

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

Tanager,

Gotcha. I knew it was either Special Forces, Rangers, or Green Berets (if they're still around).

Green Berets are the same thing as Special Forces, but I don't think any real Army folks actually call them "Green Berets." (I'm not real Army, never been in any service, I'm just going by what soldiers I've known have told me.

I'm not dissing the guy, btw - you have to do jump school and then a lot of really intense training to make the Rangers. AFAIK, the SF aren't really the "elite combat soldiers" - that's more the Rangers (limiting the discussion to the Army) in most cases. SF have traditionally been used for somewhat "quieter" purposes - again, from what little I actually know. I only know any of this b/c there are a lot of ex-SF and ex-Ranger types in NC - Army SF command is just down the road in Fayetteville.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Gotcha again.

The point I was trying to make is that this wasn't a cat who just enlisted and wound up in the Signal Corps (like I did back in the '70s). But the most important thing is that the loss of his life must not be valued more than some kid who signed up just to qualify for the GI Bill (just like I did).

[Tanager]

Yah, I heard your point - and I agree wholeheartedly. I don't think I could have done it, myself - I don't think I have the balls. I also agree - it's the cynic in me that wonders why he gets so much more notice than someone who signed up b/c it was a paying job but died in the same shithole. The less cynical part respects this guy for his choices.

[Chris D]

I don't think anyone is giving him more respect because he was a ballplayer, but his enlisting did draw attention at the time. He was a self-effacing person, and very smart. He refused all interviews about his enlistment.

(Edited to reflect crawjo's action.)

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by Chris D

I don't think anyone is giving him more respect because he was a ballplayer, but his enlisting did draw attention at the time.

I didn't say "respect," in case you were replying to my post - I said "notice," and I do think he is getting more simply b/c he's an ex-NFLer who made a choice for what appear to be pretty unselfish reasons. But I actually disagree with you - I think that, to some people, his sacrifice is inherentily more noble (and ergo somehow more worthy of respect) b/c he gave up millions to fight. I don't think it is - I think anyone who goes into a hot zone, live or die, has more balls than I do (and probably ever will).

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Chris,

I feel that my comments are aimed more at us as a people than Tillman. First off, there's no way in hell I would've done what he did. The fact that he gave no interviews proved it wasn't an act of self-promotion. I admire him for that.

But there are going to be a lot of Americans who'll be calling the cat a hero because he gave up a multi-million dollar career. To me, anyone who lays his life on the line for a cause greater then himself is a hero. Call Tillman a hero for that, not for giving up millions of dollars (of course I'm not saying that's what you're saying).

Saying all that, the word hero (like the word genius) is tossed around too much. I heard a segment from a Haliburton spokesman calling the contractors who died in Iraq heroes. It's fucked up that they got killed but the fact of the matter they choose to be there. They were offered 6 figure salaries to go to Iraq. One guy I read about quit his job to go to Iraq so that he could finance his kids' education. A few of the guys who went there had one thing in common, they had filed for bankruptcy at one time.

[shrugs]

Rangers are Spec Ops.

[moneyp]

Nice article from Adrian Wojnarowski on ESPN.com, seeing the bigger picture:

DOOM OF THE WELL-KNOWN SOLDIER

Pat Tillman never wanted to be a big story nor an American hero. He just wanted to do his duty, as proudly and anonymously as the soldiers who stood by his side.



There were no news conferences, no interviews, no parades, no self-congratulations. A year ago, Tillman left his new wife, Marie, his $3.6 million NFL contract and disappeared into the desert night.

He fought with the Army Rangers in Eastern Afghanistan, chasing al-Qaida and Taliban into the dark corners and dangerous shadows. In the end, he turned out to be one more soldier returning home to the sad, sad sound of Taps.

With his ultimate sacrifice, Tillman serves as a reminder that there are so many more coming home just like him: Draped under an American flag, tears flowing over the casket.

He never explained one of the most surprising stories in sports, an Arizona Cardinal leaving the glamour, the money, the good life for an enlistment wage of $18,000 and the risk of that firefight on Thursday that cost him his life.

September 11, 2001 didn't inspire Tillman to wear a flag on his football helmet or sing the "Star Spangled Banner" a little louder on Sundays. It inspired an epiphany that most Americans would've never stopped long enough to consider -- never mind act upon.

Without ever meeting him, without ever hearing him completely detail his motives, it seems that what Pat Tillman would've wanted today was for everyone to remember those Americans and allies dying every day in Afghanistan and Iraq. The ultimate sacrifice wasn't walking away from football and a fortune, because clearly his principles and priorities transcended the values of the culture. To Tillman, it seemed, the ultimate sacrifice belonged to the fathers and mothers who left families back in the States, whose deaths merit a story in the hometown paper and a red, white and blue wreath in the cemetery.

Tillman is a face for today, and maybe America needed that, because everyone had started to grow numb to the mounting losses overseas, that lost sense of the tragedy that unfolded every day there. The big, fancy battles that finished with the fall of Baghdad no longer fill television screens, and maybe Americans who became lost again in the every day minutia needed a kick in the stomach.

Today's loss turned out to be Pat Tillman. Maybe he never believed that this could be the result of his brave choice to enlist, but more than a year later, there is clearly a bright lining to his dark loss: The way that no one else could have -- for better or worse, for whatever it says of our society -- one familiar face made millions of Americans stop and consider the sacrifices of those serving with him.

Selflessness is thrown around too carelessly in sports -- ballplayers made out to be heroes when they're willing to switch positions. Pat Tillman, though, has transcended even the highest standards of selflessness and sacrifice, and his life and death will take on what they deserve: mythical proportions.

There will be no footage, no tape, no real records of him describing the details of his decision, of talking on and on about the choice he made. And maybe, he understood: Such navel-gazing was completely unnecessary.

In a climate where everyone talks so much about so little, Pat Tillman believed that sometimes a man needed to make a stand in his life. His spoke for himself, yes, but in the end, his death spoke too -- for the sacrifice of every soldier without a voice.

An American hero died in Afghanistan on Thursday, but what Pat Tillman was able to remind everyone back home was that, tragically, this isn't so unusual. They are dying every day.

When I heard that Tillman had given up a fairly lucrative contract with the Cards, I just thought, hey, some will go to any lengths to get away from THAT organization.

Doesn't seem so funny now.

Every death of an American soldier is terrible. This no less than any other.

Crawjo, save your wiseass stuff for elsewhere, huh?

Am I missing something here?

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Am I missing something here?

I made a post in which I said something about how Garry Trudeau should draw up a strip on Tillman. (related to the Doonesbuy discussion.) Chris D took exception, later I came back and deleted the post.

Tillman killed by friendly fire

Billy House
Republic Washington Bureau
May. 29, 2004 12:00 AM

WASHINGTON - Pat Tillman, the former Arizona Cardinals football player who died in April while a U.S. soldier fighting in Afghanistan, likely was killed by friendly fire, an Army investigation has concluded.

News of that finding was disseminated Friday to some members of Congress and some Tillman family members just as the Memorial Day weekend was to begin, including today's dedication ceremonies in Washington of the World War II Memorial.

"It does seem pretty clear that he was killed by friendly fire," said Rep. Trent Franks, R-Ariz., a member of the House Armed Services Committee, which was alerted to the information by the Army's Legislative Liaison Office.

"This does not take away one iota from the heroic nature and courage of the man. The source of that fire is of little consequence in terms of heroism," Franks said. He said that after learning of the Army's conclusions, he made some follow-up inquiries and was satisfied the information was accurate.

Friendly-fire accidents are an inevitable part of warfare, according to an expert, who agreed that it should not diminish acts of heroism.

"It's tragic, and we probably feel worse about it," said Stephen Walt, a professor of International Affairs at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University. "But warfare is a inherently unpredictable activity. Friendly-fire accidents are a part of modern warfare and probably existed as far back as the Stone Age."

The Army reported last month that Tillman, 27, was killed April 22 while leading his team of Army Rangers up a remote southeastern Afghanistan hill to knock out enemy fire that had pinned down other U.S. soldiers.

As Tillman and other soldiers neared the hill's crest, the Army reported, Tillman directed his team into firing positions and was shot and killed as he sprayed enemy positions with fire from his automatic weapon.

The Army did not specify who fired the shot or shots that killed Tillman.

For his actions, the Army posthumously awarded Tillman the Silver Star, its third-highest award for combat valor, saying Tillman led his Ranger team that day "without regard for his own safety" and was shot and killed heroically trying to save his comrades. The Army said his actions helped the trapped soldiers maneuver to safety "without taking a single casualty."

Tillman's platoon was in the region as part of a spring offensive called Operation Mountain Storm, aimed at rooting out hard-line Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.

Tillman, who to many people had become a symbol of American patriotism, had walked away from a lucrative contract extension offered by the Cardinals to join the Army in 2002.

Officials at the Pentagon and at Central Command headquarters in Tampa, late Friday declined to provide more details of the investigation's findings.

But an e-mail circulated within the House Armed Services Committee from committee staff members said: "Army just called to give us a heads up. They have every reason to believe the 15-6 investigation shows Pat Tillman was killed as a result of friendly fire."

That same message continues, "The Army has notified his family, so it may come out in the media this weekend."

Army Regulation 15-6 is used as the basis for many investigations requiring a detailed gathering and analyzing of facts, from "fratricide accidents," or friendly-fire incidents, to other matters, including civilian shootings or injuries, accidental weapons discharges or allegations of misconduct.

[patricia]

I always think that the term, "friendly fire" is a strange way of describing what happens when you give devastatingly powerful weapons and ammunition to soldiers and train them to go out and kill people whom they have demonized.
There have been hundreds of soldiers, over the years, who have been killed by mistakes made by allied gunners, not the least of which were the four Canadian soldiers, who, along with eight others who were wounded, were mistaken for the enemy in Afghanistan. They were targetted by an American bomber pilot and were killed by mistake. Oops. All it takes is someone to not know who they are targetting and, poof, another dead person. In a way, Tillman is unusual. He was famous, so he rated special mention. No disrespect meant to Tillman, or to his family. Most soldiers killed by friendly fire are just dead.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by patricia

I always think that the term, "friendly fire" is a strange way of describing what happens when you give devastatingly powerful weapons and ammunition to soldiers and train them to go out and kill people whom they have demonized.
There have been hundreds of soldiers, over the years, who have been killed by mistakes made by allied gunners, not the least of which were the four Canadian soldiers, who, along with eight others who were wounded, were mistaken for the enemy in Afghanistan. They were targetted by an American bomber pilot and were killed by mistake. Oops. All it takes is someone to not know who they are targetting and, poof, another dead person. In a way, Tillman is unusual. He was famous, so he rated special mention. No disrespect meant to Tillman, or to his family. Most soldiers killed by friendly fire are just dead.

I think it's more than hundreds, Patricia. It's a sad fact of modern warfare. As weapons become more mobile and powerful, human error is more likely to lead to catastrophic loss of life.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I think it's more than hundreds, Patricia. It's a sad fact of modern warfare. As weapons become more mobile and powerful, human error is more likely to lead to catastrophic loss of life.

I know, and I weep. How ironic that the most advanced society the world has ever known, squanders it's best and brightest minds in the pursuit of more sophistocated, more devastating weapons. Why have we, as a species, not discovered a less destructive, less dehumanizing way to settle our differences?? Surely there must be a way, but I'll be damned if I can be too optimistic. We are doomed, eventually, to be destroyed by our own ingenuity and our own greed.
I know that this will never happen, but what if the ones who declare the wars and, right now, have our children, lovers and spouses fight them, were expected to duke it out between themselves, winner take all?? After all, they are the only ones who stand to gain. I dream, as I have always dreamed of a world in which the children of so many countries know something more than hatred and viciousness.
Sure, roll your eyes, but...................why not??

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by patricia

I know, and I weep. How ironic that the most advanced society the world has ever known, squanders it's best and brightest minds in the pursuit of more sophistocated, more devastating weapons?? Why have we, as a species, not discovered a less destructive, dehumanizing way to settle our differences?? Surely there must be a way, but I'll be damned if I can be too optimistic. We are doomed, eventually, to be destroyed by our own ingenuity and our own greed.

Well, the only thing that I can say to that (and I largely agree with what you have written) is that the most sophisticated and devastating weapon of them all, the nuclear bomb, may actually have saved more lives than it has taken thus far. I think the United States and the Soviet Union would have been much more likely to confront each other militarily during the Cold War if the threat of nuclear armageddon hadn't forced them to bargain out their differences.

Of course, the problem with this is that the genie can't be put back in the box, and humanity is now in the position of being forever capable of destroying itself. It is a truly harrowing thought. It just makes me treasure life and the beauty of this planet that much more.

[GoodSpeak]

My problem in all of this [and I've said this before on another thread] is why is Tillman considered a "hero?"

He was killied in action.



This makes him a casualty...not a hero.


Is every GI killed in a war a hero?


Or is this designation only reserved for ex- professional football players?







Such hypocrisy.

I agree with you, Tim, they made much too much out of this, at the expense of others killed over there.

[Jazzooo]

"Well, the only thing that I can say to that (and I largely agree with what you have written) is that the most sophisticated and devastating weapon of them all, the nuclear bomb, may actually have saved more lives than it has taken thus far."

But you can only say this until the very next nuke goes off, which seems to me to be inevitable. In the history of mankind, being safer for the last 60 years is completely meaningless.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Jazzooo

"Well, the only thing that I can say to that (and I largely agree with what you have written) is that the most sophisticated and devastating weapon of them all, the nuclear bomb, may actually have saved more lives than it has taken thus far."

But you can only say this until the very next nuke goes off, which seems to me to be inevitable. In the history of mankind, being safer for the last 60 years is completely meaningless.

I agree. Meaningless because these weapons, mostly in the U.S. exist.
There used to be serious talk about nuclear disarmament, which would include all countries, including the U.S., but now there isn't.

A small aside. The concern that Lou Dobbs had, not about the billions of bullets for conventional weapons, used so far in Iraq, but the outsourcing of their manufacture said something very sad to me.

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

Is every GI killed in a war a hero?

In my book, yes.

[jeff54]

Tillman's parents vent anger at Army

FAMILY RESOLVED TO BEING IN DARK OVER SON'S DEATH

By Josh White

Washington Post


Former NFL player Pat Tillman's San Jose family is lashing out against the Army, saying that the military's investigations into Tillman's friendly-fire death in Afghanistan last year were a sham and that Army efforts to cover up the truth have made it harder for them to deal with their loss.

More than a year after their son was shot several times by his fellow Army Rangers on a craggy hillside near the Pakistani border, Tillman's mother and father said in interviews that they believe the military and the government created a heroic tale about how their son died to foster a patriotic response across the country. They say the Army's ``lies'' about what happened have made them suspicious, and they are certain they will never get the full story.

``Pat had high ideals about the country; that's why he did what he did,'' Mary Tillman said in her first lengthy interview since her son's death. ``The military let him down. The administration let him down. It was a sign of disrespect. The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic. The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting.''

Tillman, a Leland High School graduate and a popular player for the Arizona Cardinals, gave up stardom in the National Football League after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks to join the Army Rangers with his brother. After a tour in Iraq, their unit was sent to Afghanistan in spring 2004. Shortly after arriving in the mountains to fight, Tillman was killed in a barrage of gunfire from his own men, mistaken for the enemy.

In separate interviews in San Jose and by telephone, Tillman's parents, who are divorced, spoke about their ordeal with the Army with simmering frustration and anger. A series of military investigations have offered differing accounts of Tillman's death. The most recent report revealed more deeply the confusion and disarray surrounding the mission he was on, and more clearly showed that the family had been kept in the dark about details of his death.

The latest investigation, reported by the Washington Post earlier this month, showed that soldiers in Afghanistan knew almost immediately that they had killed Tillman by mistake in what they believed was a firefight with enemies on a tight canyon road.

That information was slow to make it back to the United States, the report said, and Army officials here were unaware that his death April 22, 2004, was fratricide when they notified the family that Tillman had been shot.

Over the next 10 days, however, top-ranking Army officials -- including the theater commander, Army Gen. John Abizaid -- were told of the reports that Tillman had been killed by his own men, the investigation said. The Army waited until a formal investigation was finished before telling the family -- which was weeks after the nationally televised memorial service in San Jose that honored Tillman on May 3, 2004.

Patrick Tillman Sr., a San Jose lawyer, said he is furious about what he found in the volumes of witness statements and investigative documents the Army has given the family. He decried what he calls a ``botched homicide investigation'' and accuses high-ranking Army officers of presenting ``outright lies'' to the family and to the public.

``After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this,'' Patrick Tillman said. ``They purposely interfered with the investigation. They covered it up. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out. They blew up their poster boy.''

Army representatives maintain the Army has done everything it can to keep the family informed about the investigation, offering to answer relatives' questions and going back to them as investigators gathered more information.

Army officials said Friday that the Army ``reaffirms its heartfelt sorrow to the Tillman family and all families who have lost loved ones during this war.'' Brig. Gen. Vincent K. Brooks, an Army spokesman, said the Army acts with compassion and heartfelt commitment when informing grieving families, often a painful duty.

``In the case of the death of Cpl. Patrick Tillman, the Army made mistakes in reporting the circumstances of his death to the family,'' Brooks said. ``For these, we apologize. We cannot undo those early mistakes.''

Brooks said the Army has ``actively and directly'' informed the Tillman family regarding investigations into his death and has dedicated a team of soldiers and civilians to answering the family's questions through phone calls and personal meetings while ensuring the family ``was as well informed as they could be.''

With each new version of events, Mary Tillman's mind swirls with new theories about what really happened and why. She questions how an elite Army unit could gun down its most recognizable member at such close range. She dwells on distances and boulders and piles of documents and the words of frenzied men.

``It makes you feel like you're losing your mind in a way,'' she said. ``You imagine things. When you don't know the truth, certain details can be blown out of proportion. The truth may be painful, but it's the truth. You start to contrive all these scenarios that could have taken place because they just kept lying. If you feel you're being lied to, you can never put it to rest.''

Patrick Tillman Sr. believes he will never get the truth, and he says he is resigned to that now. But he wants everyone in the chain of command to face discipline for ``dishonorable acts.''

``Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore,'' he said. ``Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has.''