Of IQs and Presidents

[stonecrest]

Does anyone see a pattern?

                              AVG IQ      AVG Income       '00 Electoral
(1) Connecticut..................113      $26,979          Gore
(2) Massachusetts................111      $24,059          Gore
(3) New Jersey...................111      $26,457          Gore 
(4) New York.....................109      $23,534          Gore
(5) Rhode Island.................107      $20,299          Gore
(6) Hawaii.......................106      $21,218          Gore
(7) Maryland.....................105      $22,974          Gore
(8) New Hampshire................105      $22,934          Bush
(9) Illinois.....................104      $21,608          Gore
(10) Delaware....................103      $21,451          Gore
(11) Minnesota...................102      $20,049          Gore
(12) Vermont.....................102      $18,834          Gore
(13) Washington..................102      $20,398          Gore
(14) California..................101      $21,278          Gore
(15) Pennsylvania................101      $20,253          Gore
(16) Maine.......................100      $18,226          Gore
(17) Virginia....................100      $20,629          Bush
(18) Wisconsin...................100      $18,727          Gore
(19) Colorado.....................99      $20,124          Bush
(20) Iowa.........................99      $18,287          Gore
(21) Michigan.....................99      $19,508          Gore
(22) Nevada.......................99      $20,266          Bush
(23) Ohio.........................99      $18,624          Bush
(24) Oregon.......................99      $18,202          Gore
(25) Alaska.......................98      $21,603          Bush
(26) Florida......................98      $19,397          Bush
(27) Missouri.....................98      $18,835          Bush
(28) Kansas.......................96      $19,376          Bush
(29) Nebraska.....................95      $19,084          Bush
(30) Arizona......................94      $17,119          Bush
(31) Indiana......................94      $18,043          Bush
(32) Tennessee....................94      $17,341          Bush
(33) North Carolina...............93      $17,667          Bush
(34) West Virginia................93      $15,065          Bush
(35) Arkansas.....................92      $15,439          Bush
(36) Georgia......................92      $18,130          Bush
(37) Kentucky.....................92      $16,534          Bush
(38) New Mexico...................92      $15,353          Gore
(39) North Dakota.................92      $16,854          Bush
(40) Texas........................92      $17,892          Bush
(41) Alabama......................90      $16,220          Bush
(42) Louisiana....................90      $15,712          Bush
(43) Montana......................90      $16,062          Bush
(44) Oklahoma.....................90      $16,198          Bush
(45) South Dakota.................90      $16,558          Bush
(46) South Carolina...............89      $15,989          Bush
(47) Wyoming......................89      $17,423          Bush
(48) Idaho........................87      $16,067          Bush
(49) Utah.........................87      $15,325          Bush
(50) Mississippi..................85      $14,088          Bush

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~gcharter/iq.txt

[bostontricky]

New Hampshire is where Massachusetts ships most of its Republicans under the Witness Protection Act.

What about New Mexico? Do the IQ results there have something to do with recreational drug use?

[crawjo]

Hasn't the IQ test been pretty much discredited? For instance, don't black people as a group have lower IQs than white people? And should we therefore assume that blacks aren't as smart as whites? I seem to recall a controversial book about 10 years ago on this...can't remember the title.

I wonder what George W. Bush's IQ is.

When he was with the Yankees, Reggie Jackson bragged that he had an IQ of 160. When reporters went up to Jackson's teammate, Mickey Rivers, and told Rivers about Jackson's IQ, Rivers' response was: "Out of what? A thousand?"

[stonecrest]

Originally Posted by crawjo

For instance, don't black people as a group have lower IQs than white people? And should we therefore assume that blacks aren't as smart as whites?

Well obviously there have to be differences. If we looked at redheads vs brunettes, I'm sure we'd see a difference in IQ too. But it's a little different when there's a noticeable trend amongst 50 different subsets.

Anyway, I just posted it because I found it somewhat humorous. And no, the IQ test is not the be-all, end-all of measuring intelligence but it is a good indicator.

[crawjo]

I wonder what it is about the IQ test that makes people in the Northeast perform better on it. Or I wonder what it is about the Northeast. Anyway, from living there, I'm amazed that New Jersey isn't in the bottom ten.

[Cem]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I wonder what it is about the IQ test that makes people in the Northeast perform better on it. Or I wonder what it is about the Northeast. Anyway, from living there, I'm amazed that New Jersey isn't in the bottom ten.

Dense population? Survival of the fittest? Colder climate?

[SinginSumo]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I wonder what it is about the IQ test that makes people in the Northeast perform better on it. Or I wonder what it is about the Northeast. Anyway, from living there, I'm amazed that New Jersey isn't in the bottom ten.

Did you live in Camden?

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by SinginSumo

Did you live in Camden?

No, I lived in the single densest area in the country, I think, that 10-15 mile area just west of NYC, where all the towns run into each other and traffic is a nightmare at all times during the day.

And the thing I hated the most about New Jersey: You can't fucking turn left!!

Maybe I'm just biased though because I worked as a reporter there and all the politicians I interviewed had a hard time speaking in complete, coherent sentences.

[Tanager]

I suspect it's not entirely coincidence that mean income tracks roughly with tested IQ score, which, to me, somewhat undermines the credibility of the IQ results.

[frankiepop]

the IQ test is not completely discredited. it does show a difference between black and white for example. however, that is pretty much attributable to cultural bias and other contingencies. it also shows a difference between white and asian americans, asians score higher than whites. (murray never talked about that in his book!)

the IQ should be read properly as a test designed to predict success in school and only that..a good place to grasp testing is the book mismeasure of man by stephan jay gould, where he points out the problems with testing and failures....

[moneyp]

Originally Posted by Tanager

I suspect it's not entirely coincidence that mean income tracks roughly with tested IQ score, which, to me, somewhat undermines the credibility of the IQ results.

Does it undermine it? If people were smarter (or had more aptitude, or were more "learned," or whatever you want to call it) they would be more likely to get higher paying jobs, no?

[Cem]

Originally Posted by mone peterson

Does it undermine it? If people were smarter (or had more aptitude, or were more "learned," or whatever you want to call it) they would be more likely to get higher paying jobs, no?

& choose to live in the South...

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by mone peterson

Does it undermine it? If people were smarter (or had more aptitude, or were more "learned," or whatever you want to call it) they would be more likely to get higher paying jobs, no?

I think that's a straw man at best, honestly. Do you honestly believe that, as a region, the NE is somehow that uniformly more intelligent than the rest of the country? (And while I sometimes have trouble deciphering fpop's ramblings, I believe most educators share his view of IQ tests - they are too culturally biased (speakers of "non-standard" dialects fair very poorly as a group, for example) to be credible indicators of intelligence. They may serve as indicators of potential success in school (of course, speakers of non-standard dialects do poorly there as well, taken as a group), as fpop also says.

But no, I don't think you can (and I doubt you really believe it, either) safely argue that all the smart people went up to the NE to earn more. (Of course, those higher salaries often come with higher real estate prices and translate to more tax revenues for the schools, and I am betting there's some correlation there.) And that might have something do with being more "learned," which does, of course, not mean more intelligent, just better educated. I doubt I'd have too much trouble convincing anyone that higher levels in the socioeconomic strata tend to be better educated.

What can I say - I think a survey like this is interesting, but those two numbers, taken in isolation, serve as little more meaningful than fodder for parlor games.

[crawjo]

I agree, Tanager. I know stonecrest just presented it as kind of humorous, and it is that. The list does have a nice parlor-game "ha ha" sort of feel to it.

BTW, just curious: Are the numbers here accurate, in terms of average IQ? I mean, they are based on some scientific study, and not just fabricated, yes?

[moneyp]

But no, I don't think you can (and I doubt you really believe it, either) safely argue that all the smart people went up to the NE to earn more.

No, of course not. They move to California. We're actually the smartest state in the Union, but schoolteachers in Visalia tend to throw off the curve. :-)

But even accounting for regional bias in terms of income (equalizing waitresses in Conneticut to waitresses in Mississippi, for example), I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be any correlation between income and IQ tests. I don't see that as a bias, but perhaps symptoms of the same condition.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by mone peterson

No, of course not. They move to California. We're actually the smartest state in the Union, but schoolteachers in Visalia tend to throw off the curve. :-)

But even accounting for regional bias in terms of income (equalizing waitresses in Conneticut to waitresses in Mississippi, for example), I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be any correlation between income and IQ tests. I don't see that as a bias, but perhaps symptoms of the same condition.

The smartest people that I know tend to be pretty poor, actually. But I suppose on a society-wide level, there may be some truth to it.

[stonecrest]

Originally Posted by crawjo

BTW, just curious: Are the numbers here accurate, in terms of average IQ? I mean, they are based on some scientific study, and not just fabricated, yes?

From what I understand, the average IQs and income numbers were taken from a book called IQ and the Wealth of Nations by Richard Lynn. From reading the reviews on Amazon, it looks like a pretty controversial book. Apparently the author was suggesting that there is a strong correlation between a nation's (or state's) average IQ and its wealth.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by mone peterson

But even accounting for regional bias in terms of income (equalizing waitresses in Conneticut to waitresses in Mississippi, for example), I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be any correlation between income and IQ tests. I don't see that as a bias, but perhaps symptoms of the same condition.

That's exactly what I was trying to drive at, actually - strange how we both arrived there by different routes. I very much see the correlation as symptoms of the same conditions (rather than having anything to do with "intelligence" - it's the use of the IQ tests as indicators of actual natural ability or intelligence against which I was specifically arguing. I do think that inevitably leads to ethnic or regional biases).

[Gary Sisco]

How could they come up with averages for a population when they haven't tested it?

In any case, everyone knows that the bounds of civilization are Montreal to the north, Albany to the west, New York City and very northern Jersey to the south, and the Atlantic to the east. Child's play figuring that out, for anyone who's traveled the high and biways of this here former land of the free and home of the brave. The Bay Area, Portland, OR, and New Orleans get breaks but there are exceptions to every rule................

[stonemonkts]

Originally Posted by crawjo

No, I lived in the single densest area in the country, I think, that 10-15 mile area just west of NYC, where all the towns run into each other and traffic is a nightmare at all times during the day.

And the thing I hated the most about New Jersey: You can't fucking turn left!!

Maybe I'm just biased though because I worked as a reporter there and all the politicians I interviewed had a hard time speaking in complete, coherent sentences.

the fuck you tawkin about

[Gary Sisco]

Are there any politicians anywhere in the US who can speak in complete sentences?

[clinthopson]

Originally Posted by Rainman

Are there any politicians anywhere in the US who can speak in complete sentences?

Not since Dannny Moynahan retired.

[clinthopson]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I wonder what George W. Bush's IQ is.

About the same as the philodendron in my living room.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by mone peterson

No, of course not. They move to California. We're actually the smartest state in the Union, but schoolteachers in Visalia tend to throw off the curve. :-)

But even accounting for regional bias in terms of income (equalizing waitresses in Conneticut to waitresses in Mississippi, for example), I find it hard to believe that there wouldn't be any correlation between income and IQ tests. I don't see that as a bias, but perhaps symptoms of the same condition.

Massachusetts has a disproportionately high number of excellent universities. They mostly admit students with high IQ scores. A fair number of the out-of-state students there probably live in state after graduation.

Of course there is a positive correlation between IQ and income. I don't know why anybody would question that.

fp, do you really think that the average IQ in China is higher than in the US?

Of course, Asians living in the US test higher than caucasians. However, that's probably due do selection bias. Chinese natives who move to the US are much smarter than Chinese natives who stay in China.

What type of cultural bias do you think there is that would favor whites over blacks on the math questions?

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

What type of cultural bias do you think there is that would favor whites over blacks on the math questions?

Word problems would be something that would be subject to linguistic bias, I'd think.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Tanager

Word problems would be something that would be subject to linguistic bias, I'd think.

A test of your theory would to compare black vs. white scores on math word problems vs purely computational problems. Youre theory is that whites outscore blacks on the former but not on the latter, correct?

[SinginSumo]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Maybe I'm just biased though because I worked as a reporter there and all the politicians I interviewed had a hard time speaking in complete, coherent sentences.

Then politicians, regardless of where they live, are the source of your perceptions, not New Jersey residents in general.

[bostontricky]

Forget IQ for a sec:

Why would 20 out of the 21 states at the low end of the per capita income spectrum vote for Bush?

(New Mexico is the anomaly, again)

[Cem]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

Of course, Asians living in the US test higher than caucasians. However, that's probably due do selection bias. Chinese natives who move to the US are much smarter than Chinese natives who stay in China.

I wouldn't be so sure...many Hong Kong natives emigrated to Vancouver just before the Brits handed HK over to China. A few years later, as soon as it was safe enough, many ran back home. Not to split hairs, but my main point is that not ALL of the world's brighter minds want to live here. I too fall in this trap of limited vision, that this place is the best place to live in the world. Au contraire, mon frair...

Immigrating here does not = intelligence. I'm living proof.

[crawjo]

About Chinese natives moving to the U.S.

Back when I was single and I lived in Cooperstown and my future wife lived in New York City, I used to take the bus into the city on weekends all the time. Cooperstown was the last stop on the way back, and by that time it would usually just be myself, the bus driver, and a Chinese man or woman, but never the same person. Always somebody different. They didn't seem to speak English.

As it turned out, I later found out that these people were just in from China, and they were going to this Chinese Restaurant in Cooperstown looking for work. Apparently they were all from the same Chinese village, and must have heard that when they arrived in the States, they were supposed to go to this restaurant. The restaurant owner would keep the ones he liked, and the ones he didn't like he would send out to other Chinese restaurants in New York, if they needed workers.

I don't think this example proves anything, just thought I'd share it. Take it for what it's worth.