U.S. Kills over 40 people at wedding

Just as we thought we had won their hearts and minds...--CA

U.S. Helicopter Fires on Iraqi Wedding

Wednesday May 19, 2004 6:16 PM

By SCHEHEREZADE FARAMARZI
Associated Press Writer

BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party before dawn Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people were killed in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said the dead included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of people who were allegedly killed in the incident. Most of the bodies were wrapped in blankets and other cloths, but the footage showed at least eight uncovered, bloody bodies, several of them children. One of the children was headless.

A few more details here.--CA

Officials say American aircraft kill more than 40 at wedding party
By Associated Press
Wednesday, May 19, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed.

About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television reported that more than 20 people were killed and 10 injured in the attack.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy,'' Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available,'' Williams said.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?'' said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason.''

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house.''

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Chris A

A few more details here.--CA

Officials say American aircraft kill more than 40 at wedding party
By Associated Press
Wednesday, May 19, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party early Wednesday in western Iraq, killing more than 40 people, Iraqi officials said. The U.S. military said it could not confirm the report and was investigating.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

Associated Press Television News obtained videotape showing a truck containing bodies of those allegedly killed.

About a dozen bodies, one without a head, could be clearly seen. but it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television reported that more than 20 people were killed and 10 injured in the attack.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy,'' Lt. Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesman, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from The Associated Press.

"We take all these requests seriously and we have forwarded this inquiry to the Joint Operations Center for further review and any other information that may be available,'' Williams said.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?'' said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason.''

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house.''

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province. An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

Thank you Chris. The CBC reported this about two hours ago and their figure was over forty dead. Many of the dead were children.
This is a repeat of at least one similar incident in Afghanistan, where the entire wedding party and guests were killed after the traditionsl firing of celebratory guns was interpreted by U.S. gunners as enemy fire.
I guess there were not lessons learned.

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by patricia

I guess there were not lessons learned.

I was sickened by the report, as one might expect, but this has to be said. There's also a lesson to be learned by the residents of countries under siege by the United States: Lay off the celebratory gunfire, even if it's an established custom of yours. If you don't, U.S. troops might shoot you, whether out of ignorance or out of malice.

One of the children was headless.

Oh my!! Someone obviously jumped out of the helicopter, chopped this persons head off, and then jumped back into the helicopter. Would this be correct?

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Oh my!! Someone obviously jumped out of the helicopter, chopped this persons head off, and then jumped back into the helicopter. Would this be correct?

No. As far as I know, the helecopters did all the damage from the safety of their airborne helecopters. When people are fired on, they don't just die. The damage that is afflicted on them by multiple rounds of high velocity ammunition does unbelievable damage to their bodies when they are hit. Hence the headlessness of the child in question.

Your knowledge of gunfire is staggering, Patricia.

Thanks for the theory.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Your knowledge of gunfire is staggering, Patricia.

Thanks for the theory.

You're welcome. Your theory was unlikely. I was merely suggesting that hundreds of rounds, fired into a crowd from the air is likely to do a tremendous amount of damage to a human being. Your sarcasm is misplaced.
As for my knowledge of gunfire, I do know something about what damage large calibre bullets can do, having fired one or two hunting rifles in my lifetime. I would imagine that the artillary being used in Irag, being fired from helecopters, is just a little bit more lethal than a hunting rifle's is.
But you know better so.............do tell.

[crawjo]

Oops.

What a terrible tragedy. One of my friends served in Afghanistan as a pilot for an attack helicopter, and this is the kind of thing they fear the most. I imagine the pilot of this helicopter feels very bad right now. I can't imagine having something like this on my conscience.

But you know better so.............do tell.

I already did.

I don't read Dolan's posts, but the quotes from same indicate that he is as disgusting as ever, making light of a real tragedy for no other reason that that the perpetrators are our own military. I suppose Sharon's attack on Palestinian demonstrators is ok with him, too. This is the kind of mentality that contributes to world-wide hatred of the U.S.

[crawjo]

Scott,

I'd be happy to check with my friend who flies Apaches, but I'm pretty sure that they possess firepower sufficient enough to decapitate someone, especially a child.

Chris once again suggests that he does not read my posts.

I guess he figures you all are too stupid to have gotten that message the first 100 times he said it.

Rock on Chris!!!!

[tippy]

In re the guy who got his head chopped off...hasn't it been suggested that he was a traitor so why do we care? At last glance, Al Qaeda was doing some house cleaning after Berg was picked up by the FBI. Is it possible that AQ served the interests of both sides by executing him? Just as killing Iraqis has been helping us help them?

Thoroughly confused,
Tippy

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

I already did.

So, on the basis of no evidence, your theory is that the helecopter landed, the soldier got out, beheaded the child, got back in the helecopter and left??
And you think that my explanation was unlikely..........................Uh....OK.

So, on the basis of no evidence, your theory is that the helecopter landed, the soldier got out, beheaded the child, got back in the helecopter and left??

Yes.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Yes.

Just checking.

[jesus marion joseph]

I agree with crawjo that, assuming this story pans out as reported, it is a tragedy. However (and I am preparing to be flamed for this), who in their right minds would fire guns into the air when US military choppers are present (and yes, I understand that this is apparently a regular occurrence at weddings in this region-but still)? Especially since it must be known that this kind of accident has happened before? Maybe I'm overthinking a little.

[stonemonkts]

Just an aside...I think firing bullets straight up into the air for any reason is fucking stupid and dangerous. Those little chunks of metal come raining down somewhere.

[bostontricky]

Originally Posted by jesus marion joseph

Especially since it must be known that this kind of accident has happened before? Maybe I'm overthinking a little.

I don't think you're overthinking, but I'm not sure these poor saps knew. You and I know about past incidences about wedding parties being fired upon, but I don't think these guys are watching CNN 24/7 to get their news. Nor would I count on Al-Jazeera to be running public service announcements to that effect.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by jesus marion joseph

I agree with crawjo that, assuming this story pans out as reported, it is a tragedy. However (and I am preparing to be flamed for this), who in their right minds would fire guns into the air when US military choppers are present (and yes, I understand that this is apparently a regular occurrence at weddings in this region-but still)? Especially since it must be known that this kind of accident has happened before? Maybe I'm overthinking a little.

Keep in mind that this also happened at, what, 2 or 3 in the morning? They were probably drunk. Must have been one hell of a party, though, before it turned so horrifically tragic.

C'mon people. Your country is presently occupied by a heavily armed military who is on edge from being shot at on a daily basis.

Hey, I know!!!! Lets fire our guns into the nightime air in celebration!!!!

Poor saps? Stupid saps possibly. Darwinism at work.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

C'mon people. Your country is presently occupied by a heavily armed military who is on edge from being shot at on a daily basis.

Hey, I know!!!! Lets fire our guns into the nightime air in celebration!!!!

Poor saps? Stupid saps possibly. Darwinism at work.

Nah, there's no "social Darwinism" here, and anyway, if these guys were "stupid saps" (which I don't believe), there are still women and children and plenty of people who probably weren't firing any rifles who were killed as a result of this.

Darwinism is a crock. Everybody does stupid things from time to time, it is only the rare and unfortunate soul who pays for it by being targeted by an Apache helicopter. (Assuming this was an Apache.)

[Darryl G. Thomas]

It's called winning hearts and minds.

I think the last such incident happened in Afghanistan.

Man, I hope there's no such thing as Karma.

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by jesus marion joseph

I agree with crawjo that, assuming this story pans out as reported, it is a tragedy. However (and I am preparing to be flamed for this), who in their right minds would fire guns into the air when US military choppers are present (and yes, I understand that this is apparently a regular occurrence at weddings in this region-but still)? Especially since it must be known that this kind of accident has happened before? Maybe I'm overthinking a little.

You may have been overthinking a little, but you weren't overreading a little. See #4.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reports on Reuters and AP (via Yahoo) are now suggesting that U.S. troops were not shooting at the wedding party but bombing the wedding party. But the reporting is still vague and tentative.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

It's called winning hearts and minds.

I think the last such incident happened in Afghanistan.

Man, I hope there's no such thing as Karma.

If this story is true, can you imagine how surreal that must have been? You're up late partying at a wedding, and you fire some rifles off into the air, and all of a sudden, BOOM. Massacre. It's just awful.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by bluenoter

You may have been overthinking a little, but you weren't overreading a little. See #4.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reports on Reuters and AP (via Yahoo) are now suggesting that U.S. troops were not shooting at the wedding party but bombing the wedding party. But the reporting is still vague and tentative.

Yeah, that's probably where the decapitation comes from. These attack helicopters are equipped with a lot more than bullets. Bombing is probably the more likely response. If you think your chopper is taking fire from somewhere on the ground, are you going to fight fire with fire or fight fire with bombs?

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally Posted by bluenoter

[B][FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]You may have been overthinking a little, but you weren't overreading a little. See #4.

Oops.

*ahem*

Just like with the Berg beheading video, I have chosen not to jump to the conclusions that those in the media wish for us to.

And like the Berg story, this one looks like it will get more confusing as it goes along. Is anyone here familiar with the term propaganda?

Please hold all bets for the new dealer:





U.S. Disputes Strike Report on Iraqi Wedding Party

Wednesday, May 19, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq — U.S. military officials disputed suggestions that an American helicopter struck a wedding party in western Iraq on Wednesday and said coalition forces staged an attack against suspected foreign fighters.

Arab television and The Associated Press aired video showing the bodies of small children in a truck full of bodies and people digging graves as they quoted witnesses and Iraqi officials who discussed the attack.

But senior military officials in Washington said U.S. and coalition forces conducted a strike on "anti-coalition vehicles" along the Iraqi-Syrian border.

According to the military, at 3 a.m. local time Wednesday coalition forces conducted an operation against a suspected foreign fighter safe house in the open desert. The house was 25 kilometers from the Syrian border, 85 kilometers southwest of Husaybah, military officials said.

Coalition forces came under hostile fire and called for support from the air. After the strike, coalition forces recovered numerous weapons, foreign passports, a SATCOM radio and two million Iraqi and Syrian dinar, military officials said.

The attack killed about 40 people, officials said.

Iraqi officials and others described a very different scenario.

Lt. Col Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi (search), said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, which took place about 2:45 a.m. in a remote desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan. He said those killed included 15 children and 10 women.

Dr. Salah al-Ani, who works at a hospital in Ramadi, put the death toll at 45.

The Dubai-based Al-Arabiya television reported that more than 20 people were killed and 10 injured in the attack.

The videotape, obtained and aired by Associated Press Television News, showed about a dozen bodies, one without a head. But it appeared that bodies were piled on top of each other and a clear count was not possible.

Iraqis interviewed on the videotape said partygoers had fired into the air in a traditional wedding celebration. American troops have sometimes mistaken celebratory gunfire for hostile fire.

The video footage showed mourners with shovels digging graves. A group of men crouched and wept around one coffin.

Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.

"This was a wedding and the (U.S.) planes came and attacked the people at a house. Is this the democracy and freedom that (President) Bush has brought us?" said a man on the videotape, Dahham Harraj. "There was no reason."

Another man shown on the tape, who refused to give his name, said the victims were at a wedding party "and the U.S. military planes came... and started killing everyone in the house."

In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province (search). An investigative report released by the U.S. Central Command (search) said the airstrike was justified because American planes had come under fire.

Fox News' Bret Baier and Ian McCaleb and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

"Poor saps? Stupid saps possibly. Darwinism at work."--Dolan

No, more like racism at work--right here on JC.