Bush And God

[Clay Fink]

From the editor emeritus of The Wall Street Journal we learn that Darwin and Newton were all wet, that the Scope's trial came out wrong, and that if a majority of Americans believe a bunch of supernatural nonsense then it must be the truth...

Have fun!

THINKING THINGS OVER

Cross Fire
President Bush is a Christian. Why does that bother people?

BY ROBERT L. BARTLEY
Monday, April 21, 2003 12:01 a.m. EDT

Easter Monday is an apt time to note that President George W. Bush has been taking darts as a born-again Christian. This tells us something about today's president, and something more about today's religion.

The president comes by his faith, of course, because he stopped drinking and found God at age 40. As a Methodist, he's not exactly a speaking-in-tongues Pentecostal, but he clearly does believe that good and evil walk the world. He also says things such as, "Behind all of life and all of history, there's a dedication and a purpose, set by the hand of a just and faithful God." This comes from the Presidential Prayer Breakfast, where other presidents have said similar things. But both friend and foe have the sense that Mr. Bush really means it.

The surprising thing is how much of the carping about the president's religion, especially in the context of war against Saddam Hussein, comes from the ranks of those who represent religion. Thus prominent theologian Martin Marty pens a piece in Newsweek entitled "The Sin of Pride," complaining about the President's "evident conviction that he's doing God's will."

The Christian Century, similarly, devoted most of its March 8 issue to a barrage of war criticism. "Imperialism, American Style," was the title of the salvo by eminent sociologist Robert Bellah. "Americans may not have thought of the World Trade Center or the Pentagon as the symbolic headquarters of a world empire," he explained, "but the men with the box cutters certainly did, and so do numberless millions who cheered their terrifying exercise."

The Christian Century editors complained that Mr. Bush's actions, such as a hands-off attitude toward the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, give "tacit support" to the wrong religious perspective. They are "in line with end-times scenarios imagined by some conservative Christians and fictionalized in the 'Left Behind' series that has sold over 50 million volumes since 1995. Up to 40 percent of Americans believe that we are living in the last days, says historian Paul S. Boyer, and that history is racing toward an apocalyptic clash between the forces of good and evil. Millions of Americans believe that the Bible foretells regime change in Iraq, that God established Israel's boundaries millennia ago, and the United Nations is a forerunning of a satanic world order."





Holy Cow, Mr. Bush is caught in the cross fire of a religious civil war. These are the voices of liberal Protestantism, which once again finds itself out of step with the pews. The pope has the same problem, of course, in declaring the war "a crime against humanity." In March the Pew Research Center found that 62% of both Catholics and mainline Protestants backed the war, compared with 44% of non-believers and 77% of evangelicals.
In contrast to The Christian Century, commentary in Christianity Today, launched by Billy Graham, ran toward a sermon by Philip Jensen, dean of Saint Andrew's Anglican Cathedral in Sydney, Australia. To wit, "Apocalypse Again and Again: The Bible doesn't tell us when to go to war but how to live in a war-ridden world." And Marvin Olasky's World Magazine ran a headline "Onward Christian Soldiers," over a movie review noting that troops headed to Iraq previewed the Civil War epic "Gods and Generals."

Ardent religions are growing, while liberal ones are declining. The leading study, "Religious Congregations and Membership: 2000" by the Glenmary Research Center, found that the Mormon church grew 19.3% in the 1990s. Also gaining were evangelical churches; the Christian Churches and Churches of Christ up 18.6%, and the Assemblies of God, up 18.5%. The Roman Catholic Church, no doubt helped by burgeoning Hispanics, grew 16.2%. Meanwhile, the Presbyterian Church USA shrank 11.6%. Trailing the list was the United Church of Christ, which has rewritten its hymnal to eliminate masculine pronouns and other politically incorrect language. Over the decade it lost 14.8% of its membership.

On net, religious impulses are probably growing. September 11 persuaded others besides George Bush that evil is an active force in the world. The science of the Big Bang and DNA looks much more like the work of a creator than the cold world of Newtonian Laws and Darwinian evolution. And at least indirectly the horrors of the 20th century showed that the latter provides no moral compass.

The Scopes Monkey trial of 1925, the great defeat of the fundamentalists, has in particular come in for reassessment. Noting for example that the ACLU advertised for a plaintiff, a 2002 PBS documentary let the people of Dayton, Tenn. say that they were not the dolts depicted by the news dispatches of H. L. Mencken and the 1960 movie "Inherit the Wind." And in his new Mencken biography "The Skeptic," Terry Teachout points to the unlovely side of the philosophy animating his account: A disdain of democracy, for example, in favor of credo of Social Darwinism, applying survival of the fittest to human communities, and its corollary of eugenics, shortly later discredited by the Third Reich.

As for the Iraq war, what do the pope and liberal theologians make of the cheering crowds in Baghdad and Saddam's torture chambers? The president's success has confounded his critics. His decision, whatever role Divine Guidance played, clearly was what psychologists call inner-directed. His war cabinet meetings did not include people such as Karl Rove, Karen Hughes or Ari Fleischer. Somehow it's better, I suspect, for a president to talk to God than to talk to pollsters.

Mr. Bartley is editor emeritus of The Wall Street Journal. His column appears Mondays in the Journal and on OpinionJournal.com.

[Tanager]

I find the level to which religious inspiration seems to have infected our policy making frightening, and Lord knows I detest and fear fundamentalism (and Bush), but I also find your glib characterization of all religious belief as belief in "supernatural nonsense" more than a bit facile and asinine.

Having said that, I find the argument that Bush is somehow obeying God rather than the pollsters more than a bit disingenuous when the author also sees fit to cite the percentages of citizens (including a breakdown by religious similarity to Bush's own beliefs) who supported the "war." Maybe it's God telling him to ratchet up those tax cuts, too?

[Pete C]

It's always depressing to be reminded that at least 40% of Americans are imbeciles.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Tanager
I also find your glib characterization of all religious belief as belief in "supernatural nonsense" more than a bit facile and asinine.

I wasn't trying to be insulting, but if a large percentage of people believe in the resurrection, the "end times", that they are going to heaven, etc., then they believe supernatural nonsense. How else can a rational person characterize such beliefs? If someone has a vague spiritual belief in a "higher power" then they are still engaging in magical thinking, though a minor form as compared to full blown fundamentalism. I know people much brighter than I am who are fundies so intelligence has nothing to do with buying into the supernatural.

"Supernatural nonsense" is a redundant phrase when I think about it.

Mass delusions are not restricted to America, or religious people either: take libertarians, communists and free-market conservatives, for example. You can add homiopathy, reikki, UFOs, crystals, TM, colonic therapy, etc.. My guess is that none of those presents as much potential danger as religious (or political) fundamentalism.

[Ron Thorne]

It's been my observation that the 40% estimate might be (as Harry Caray used to say) "a li'l bit low".

And, there are these gems from http://dubyaspeak.com/.

"Everybody is precious in the sight of the Almighty. Everybody has worth. That would be a philosophy that drives this government as we work to strive to make the American experience strong and hopeful for every single citizen". - Washington, D.C., Jan. 30, 2003

"It's so inspirational to see your courage, as well as to see the great works of our Lord in your heart". - Nashville, Tennessee, Feb. 10, 2003

"In this country and in Australia people believe that everybody has got worth, everybody counts, that everybody is equal in the eyes of the Almighty. So the issue is not only peace, the issue is freedom and liberty. I made it clear in my State of the Union -- and the people of Australia must understand this -- I don't believe liberty is America's gift to the world. I believe it is God's gift to humanity". - Washington, D.C., Feb. 10, 2003

"If I may, I'd like to remind you what I said at the State of the Union. Liberty is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to each and every person. And that's what I believe. I believe that when we see totalitarianism, that we must deal with it". - prime time press conference, White House, Mar. 6, 2003

"We believe in freedom. We believe freedom is universal. We believe freedom is -- is a gift from the Almighty God for every person, regardless of their race or their religion". - Bethesda, Maryland, Apr. 11, 2003

I think I see a pattern emerging here.

[Clay Fink]

Just for the sake of argument, every President I can remember has evoked God. There is some sort of "civic religion" that is generic and trotted out all the time in a President's speeches. Bush does seem to speak more in the language of born-again christianity than any other recent President. That in and of itself is not as worisome as how his policies reflect his Fundamentalism, from stem cells to this war. That's the real problem. There's a lot of examples of people who have been able to compartmentalze their religous beliefs and support policies that they might be at odds with theologically. That's OK. That is an honest response by a religious person who knows they live a pluralistic society where there are a lot of shades of gray. Bush's brain stem is so underdeveloped, aparently, that he can only see in black and white.

Religion being the root of so much evil, we should not be surprised to find Bush embracing it.

Does anybody else here look at the situation with God, Moses, and Pharoah as kind of telling when it comes to religeon?

God unleashes a terrible plague on Pharoah who then relents and tells Moses he can take his people and go. But, God says to Moses 'I have hardened Pharoahs heart'. Pharoah refuses to let Moses go. God then proceeded to unleash another plague on Pharoahs land to demonstrate his greatness. Then Pharoah agreed to let Moses and his people go. Then God hardened Pharoahs heart again, and you can figure out the rest.

Does anybody else see this as extermely egotistical on God's part?

Oh, and there was lots of war in the Bible.

Just a random thought.............

[clinthopson]

Religious extremists are dangerous whether they are Christians, Arabs, Jews or any other set of beliefs. Shrub and his gang fit the bill. They are dangerous and must be excised from government. Unfortunately the great unwashed masses are buying their fanatacism without question. This is a sad time for the country and the world, for that matter.

[Troy D]

I'm not quite sure why it's Bush's alleged "religiosity" that is coming under such scrutiny, as opposed to his blatant cynical manipulation of religious rhetoric to further his political agenda.

I belong to a denomination (ELCA--Evangelical Lutheran Church in America) which, like a lot of diverse faith organizations in this country, sent delegates to seek a hearing with the president in a desperate bid to get him to rethink his Iraq policy. The result? He basically told them to get lost, on repeated occasions. These do not sound like the actions of someone who takes religion all that seriously. A much more likely (and dangerous) possibility is that he finds religion a convenient political tool.

The danger, as always, is unaccountable leaders who refuse to harbor dissent or answer to critics--and this, as history shows us, has nothing whatsoever to do with religiosity. Hitler was a pagan, and Stalin a devout atheist. I could go on.

[Tanager]

I have to say I agree with Troy on this one - I think religion is a cover for an agenda, not the underlying motivation. Clay, I might have been oversensitive (something I seem to be doing overmuch these days, why I do not know, sorry), but I interpreted you as meaning that "religious" people in general believed in superstitious nonsense, i.e. religion is a priori superstitious nonsense. If I misread what you meant, my bad. Looks like I might have done just that.

Back to my point (and, I think, Troy's): if he's really motivated by religion, then surely God cares about (a) the underinsured and uninsured without access to health care in this country, (b) the state of this planet and its environment...etc.

And if freedom comes from God, then maybe God cares about people held without access to counsel? Maybe God cares about the repressive regimes with whom our government deals as allies, too? I don't know - I'll be honest, I do believe in God, and I guess that makes me religious, but He isn't usually so obvious to me in his political preferences. I must not be using the right prayers.

[lynn]

I also tend to agree with Troy. Religion and whipping the believers into a lather is an obvious tactic for reaching the ultimate goal, aquisition and control of resources. Land, oil, water, gold, precious gems all equal power in historic perspectives.

Just look anywhere where you find some conflict and some resource issue will be burried under the conflict.

[Clay Fink]

I actually think Bush is sincere in his religous beliefs. Unfortunately his brand of Christianity is the American nativist, anti-intellectual, "get even" brand. It's not new but it's still dangerous. There is also a lot of cynical manipulation going on as well by Rummie, Rove and Cheney.

[patricia]

Speaking of Fundamentalism, there is a rather disturbing development in that some Evangelical group is heading over to Iraq, with the intention of converting the citizens to Christianity. The Middle East already has a recognized, legitimate religion. Over ninety percent of the population follow a faith which is thousands of years older than Christianity. What right do these people, well-meaning though they may be, have to presume that Christianity is the only way? They already recognize Jesus Christ as a prophet and already believe in one God.

[Salvador Dali Lama]

Uh, what religion is this patricia? the one thousands of years older than christianity?

[Monte Smith]

The problem with religion is it is so divisive.



I'm not a believer in much myself, but the thing I believe least in is thinking I'm better than the great unwashed because of my perception of metaphysics. Yeah, so 40% of Americans are "imbeciles." Like more than 40% of the rest of the world currently. Like 99% of all humans thru out history.

Imbeciles.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by patricia
Speaking of Fundamentalism, there is a rather disturbing development in that some Evangelical group is heading ove to Iraq, with the intention of converting the citizens to Christianity. The Middle East already has a recognized, legitimate religion. Over ninety percent of the population follow a faith which is thousands of years older than Christianity.

Wow, there are that many Jews in the Middle East?

(Mohammed dates to, what, the 6th and 7th centuries A.D. (or C.E. if you prefer)?)

FWIW, although I generally agree with your sentiments re: sending missionaries over (I don't think we should allow any US missionaries in Iraq for a long time), the Middle East has many recognized, legitimate religions. Not all Arabs are Muslims.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Monte Smith
The problem with religion is it is so divisive.

I agree, it is usually used as a tool of division. It's sad. OTOH, I just hope folks don't make people feel apologetic just for being religious (as these types of discussions often seem to do, IMHO). Being religious doesn't in an of itself make on an imbecile (again, IMHO). It's as much what you do with it as what you believe.

(Just in case anyone's listening, I still detest Bush, and I'm not in any way defending his (IMO) use of religion as a cover, in case my wimpyass lefty creds are in doubt.)

[patricia]

Originally posted by Salvador Dali Lama
Uh, what religion is this patricia? the one thousands of years older than christianity?

Sorry SDL, I mis-spoke. As Tananger says, Islam is *only* thirteen centuries old, although their culture is thousands of years old. My point was that North America is a child in the development of human history. As my mother was fond of saying, "While we were still swinging from trees, the Middle and Far east had established a civilization and a culture". By "we", she meant Europeans, whose culture is older than ours, which even now is still evolving.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally posted by Tanager
Wow, there are that many Jews in the Middle East?

She's talking about zoroastrianists. Mazda bless them.

[Salvador Dali Lama]

I like reading about the Caliphate of Baghdad.

they were going to colleges and drinking out of golden bowls and hanging out in the worlds largest library while Europeans were still shitting in the streets.

I also like how they left that out of the textbooks for public schools.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
Just for the sake of argument, every President I can remember has evoked God. There is some sort of "civic religion"

This reminds me - atheism is the most-discriminated-against characteristic of a potential president, according to a 2000 Gallup poll, of eight tested characteristics (incl. black, woman, homosexual, etc). Only 49% of those polled would consider voting for an atheist. God Bless America! :-P

[BFrank]

Here's an "abstract" from a recent NY Times article about religion in Canada and how the expression of it in government is especially avoided.

Foreign Desk | March 26, 2003, Wednesday
LETTER FROM THE AMERICAS; In God We Trust . . . Canadians Aren't So Sure

By Clifford Krauss (NYT)
'Letter From the Americas' column on divergence between Canadians and Americans on matters religious; photos; Pew Research poll finds only thirty percent of Canadians say religion is very important to them, compared with 59 percent of Americans, and statistics would be even more skewed if not for growing numbers of devout Muslims, Sikh and Hindu immigrants in Canada; Canadian prime ministers rarely if ever speak in religious terms, whereas religious rhetoric has played important role in sanctifying American political action since war for independence (M) The French Canadian writer Yann Martel has acknowledged that he rearranged chapters in the Canadian edition of his new novel, ''Life of Pi,'' because he feared that Canadians would be offended by its religious content.

''America is a very religious, almost puritanical country,'' he told Publishers Weekly last year. ''In Canada, secularism is triumphant, and to talk noncynically, nonironically about religion is strange.''

It was also mentioned here that using the term "God Bless Canada" would never, ever be used in public. In fact, it wasn't until Trudeau left office that it became known that he was a practicing Catholic.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Salvador Dali Lama
I like reading about the Caliphate of Baghdad.

they were going to colleges and drinking out of golden bowls and hanging out in the worlds largest library while Europeans were still shitting in the streets.

We had streets?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by BFrank
''America is a very religious, almost puritanical country,'' he told Publishers Weekly last year. ''In Canada, secularism is triumphant, and to talk noncynically, nonironically about religion is strange.''

This I buy. And in reply to Vince's post, I'd have to think that being educated or overly intellectual run second to being an atheist in terms of qualities least tolerated in a President (being dishonest is obviously very much tolerated).

I find the religious atmosphere (in general, obviously, as with everything, there are exceptions) very stifling. If I say, "I believe in some sort of God," it is immediately assumed that means, "I believe in the Bible as a literal rendition of the Word," blah blah blah blah blah. This isn't a byproduct of living in the South, either - I find the same attitude almost everywhere, again, with exceptions. I've given up trying to have meaningful conversations about religion, b/c it always ends up with my getting preached to about how misguided I am and how I need to find Jesus, etc. As with so many other things, investigation and critical thinking are viewed as tantamount to sacrilege.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally posted by Tanager
T...it always ends up with my getting preached to about how misguided I am and how I need to find Jesus,...

You're looking for Jesus? He's staying at my dad's house until he can find an apartment. Uncle Jesus, that is.

[tippy]

My evangelical group went to Baghdad, New Texas and all I got was this stupid t-shirt.

[Jazzooo]

Clay said "Mass delusions are not restricted to America, or religious people either: take libertarians, communists and free-market conservatives, for example. You can add homiopathy, reikki, UFOs, crystals, TM, colonic therapy, etc.."

So you believe homeopathy is a delusion? How utterly sad.

No better than the yo yos who belittle anything they don't personally understand or practice themselves, regardless of how long others have been practising it.

"Only 49% of those polled would consider voting for an atheist. "

Well, turns out that was enough for W.

[Dr Dave]

Whether Bush's beliefs are sincere or not are beside the point. He leans more on advertising his Christianity than any other modern President.

Me, I think we invented God because we don't want to accept the awesome responsibility of being at the top of the food chain.

PS: I always thought Bartley was nuts. I now feel this belief more justified than ever before.

[Ron Thorne]

Jazzooo-

As I'm sure you'll agree, it's always helpful to know who is being quoted. Since we now have a very flexible "quote" feature on this new board, either using it or manually entering the name of the person being quoted following the remark is appreciated.

Thanks.

''America is a very religious, almost puritanical country'' ... - BFrank

Man, that's an understatement, if I ever read one.