Keith Jarrett - Music and the High-End

[Chazro]

Wazzup All!

The following is an exerpt from the forward that KJ wrote for Robert Harley's wonderful book; The Complete Guide To High-End Audio:

...As a musician, I often -too often- had the following experience: I would play a concert, hear the tape afterward, and wonder what was missing. I would remember incredible things in the concert that just weren't on the tape. The notes were there, but notes are not music. Where was the music, the intention?

...If you've heard a certain CD on a certain system, it doesn't necessarily mean you've heard what's on the CD. We must learn to trust the responses of our own system -our ears- to music systems...

People to whom music is important need to get close to the intention in a recording, and there's only one way to do this in the home: learn about the world of audio equipment.

...Obviously, the musical experience is a delicate, complex thing, and we humans are more sensitive than we sometimes think. But we have the option to tune our music systems to better balance the equation.

Another exerpt!

High-end audio is about passion - passion for music, and for how well it is reproduced. High-end audio is the quest to re-create in the listeners home the musical message of the composer or performer with the maximum realism, emotion, and intensity. Because music is important, re-creating it with the highest possible fidelity is important. - Robert Harley

The reason I post this is because I feel that regardless of the many differences between the people that hang on this board, the ONLY thing that we all absolutely have in common is our passion for music. Knowing this, I can't help but feel that music-lover's that aren't into Good Sound are so missing out on a good thing that it makes me want to grab 'em and give 'em a good shaking down!!

...A common misperception among the hi-fi-consuming public is that high-end audio means high-priced audio. In the mass-market mind, high-end audio is nothing more than elaborate stereo equipment with fancy features and price tags aimed at millionaires. Sure, the performance may be a little better than the hi-fi you find at your local appliance store, but who can afford it? Moreover, high-end audio is seen as being only for trained, discriminating listeners, snobs, or gadget freaks-but not for the average person on the street.

High-end audio is none of these things.

First, the term "high-end" refers to the products perfomance, not their price. Many true high-end systems cost no more -and often less- than the all-in-one rack systems sold in department stores. I've heard many inexpensive systems that capture the essence of what high-quality music reproduction is all about - systems easily within the budgets of average consumers....

Second, high-end audio is about communicating the musical experience, not adding elaborate, difficult-to-operate features...High-end audio is for music lovers, not electronics whizzes.

Third, anyone who likes music can immediately appreciate the value of high-quality sound reproduction. It doesn't take a "golden ear" to know what sounds good. The differences between good and mediocre music reproduction are instantly obvious. The reaction - usually pleasure and surprise - of someone hearing a true high-end audio system for the first time underscores that high-end audio can be appreciated by everyone.

If you enjoy music, you'll enjoy it more through a high-end system. It's that simple.

[Troy D]

Originally posted by David Gitin
What should one look for? (in speakers, receivers)

Unfortunately, this is where things start to get complicated. I don't think there's any neat way to generalize about what counts as true "audiophile" grade sound, since the sonic qualities of different brands (esp. with regard to speakers) tend to vary quite a bit. You have to go with what your ears tell you, ultimately.

One thing that's often not given enough attention is the way in which all stereo systems "color," or affect the reproduction of the sound in particular ways--not just the "mass market" stereo products. There's no such thing as "pure," unadulterated reproduction of audio, despite the fact that many cling to this ideal and claim that this is what a true audiophile system should provide. So you essentially have to decide which products produce the most euphonically pleasing sound for your ears, and go from there. At least this is the advice that is most commonly given.

If you're just making the jump from mass-market audio to something a bit better, you can consider entry-level products from the following brands. For speakers: Paradigm, PSB, Axiom. For amplifiers and cd players: Cambridge Audio, AMC, Creek. I'll let others (shrugs, for instance) recommend turntable choices for folks who want to go that route. I know Music Hall makes some very inexpensive turntables, and they're supposed to be quite good as entry-level products.

[Troy D]

Which ones do you have, David?

I've got PSBs as well--the Image 4Ts. I really like 'em.

[Tanager]

I just recently bought Axioms, and I love them. Great speaker, great price. I have the m22ti, which is a 2 1/2-way tallish "bookshelf" model.

I agree with Troy on the coloration qualities - there just ain't any way to get around 'em, no matter how hard you try.

One site I definitely recommend for "budget audiophile" shoppers is Goodsound (www dot...blah blah blah). That and Soundstage are associated sites which cater to those looking for great sound on the cheap, both worth a visit. Their archived reviews (from both sites) can be found at this site.

A friend of mine has PSBs and digs 'em mightily, too.

[Jimmy Cantiello]

I'm planning to add two bookshelf speakers to my sysytem. I don't want to spend a whole lot. I've been looking at Mission M71s and so far have read a few good reviews on these speakers. Does anyone here have any experience with Missions? I know that Chris DuPre had mentioned Missions. I'm specifically thinking about the M71 model which are considered "budget" speakers but sound great. They retail for less than $300.00/pair................

[Tanager]

Not to harp on the Axioms, but check out the M3ti, Jimmy. Retails for $275 incl. shipping.

[Jimmy Cantiello]

I will definitely put the Axioms on my short list. Thanks!

[Troy D]

Originally posted by Tanager


One site I definitely recommend for "budget audiophile" shoppers is Goodsound (www dot...blah blah blah). That and Soundstage are associated sites which cater to those looking for great sound on the cheap, both worth a visit. Their archived reviews (from both sites) can be found at this site.

Goodsound is indeed a great site for the budget-minded. That's where I first found out about AMC integrated amps--a great product for the $$. Tanager, I was hoping the link you provided would take me to the old goodsound archives, from several years ago, where they had a whole bunch of speakers, CD players, etc. with brief reviews and sorted by price. Do you remember that? When they moved to the new site, they kept saying that they would be bringing back the old reviews as well, but they never did (at least so far as I know).

Jimmy, I don't have any direct experience with Missions, but a lot of people say they're great bookshelf speakers. I think the quality of Missions tends to vary from model to model, though--auditioning before you buy may be a safe move.

[Jimmy Cantiello]

You guys are trouble makers. I went to Axiom's web-site to check out the M3Tis that Tanager suggested and now I'm seriously considering Axiom M22Tis. They're only a little more than $100.00 above the price of the smaller units. Damn, I wish I wasn't so fickle. Sometimes I feel like an audio slut.........................

[Troy D]

I know exactly what you mean, Jimmy. If my wife didn't control the bank account, we'd be in big trouble by now. I've already got a dream system planned out, for an occasion in which she becomes delusional or something and agrees to my wishes.

Hey, why not get floorstanders, as long as you're considering moving up to bigger ones anyway?

I gotta say Axiom makes some nice looking speakers.

[Tom Storer]

My problem is that music excites and moves me, but concentrating on audio technology bores me stiff. Music sounds great to me on the run of the mill equipment I now have. No part of my listening brain pays attention to "audio." I just hear music. If I were to have better equipment I would probably enjoy the listening more, but I'm not sure I would enjoy the music more, if that makes any sense. But in any case I just can't stand the utter boredom of thinking about audio.

[Jimmy Cantiello]

You're right, Tom. Sometimes it's very hard to discern any difference in the actual music regardless of what equipment it's played on. But..................it's been my experience, when music is heard coming from very good stereo components it can be, and often is , breathtaking. Higher end equipment reproduces the music more realistically with less coloration. Sometimes the difference in sound is like night and day. If one is used to hearing music from run-of-the-mill equipment he doesn't even realize what he's missing. I'll be willing to bet if you played your music on Shrugs' equipment you would be astounded.........................

[Tanager]

Troy, I have heard from lots of folks that, unless you really *need* the bass (and most jazz does NOT need that much bass in terms of truly low freq response), you get better overall sound from monitors/bookshelf models. The midrange is just tighter and cleaner (I say this more from others' experience than my own). The added $$$ to get floorstanders of equivalent quality just isn't worth it to me, at least.

Re: the Goodsound archives (pre-site-redo), a friend of mine found it on the WaybackMachine at one point - I'll see if he can dig up the link so I can forward it here.

Since there is only one US dealer that I know of for Axioms (lots of dealers in CA, but have to do mail order in the US), anyone living near NC is welcome to come listen to mine before you purchase. I love my speakers.

[Tanager]

Troy, try this for starters:

http://web.archive.org/web/199801271...goodsound.html

Also go to the Wayback Machine and enter "www.goodsound.com" as the search string, you'll get snapshots of the site at various points - 1999 on appears to be the new site.

[Troy D]

Thanks, Tanager! Exactly what I was looking for.

You're probably right, by the way, about bookshelf speakers having better overall value (and performance, perhaps, on the mids and top-end). I made the jump to floorstanders for a couple main reasons. 1) I do have a fair number of pop recordings, and jazz recordings, (e.g. 70s-era Miles) where the additional bass from floorstanders is definitely a plus. I know one can always go the subwoofer route, but that always sounded like a lot of work to me (getting the bass level properly configured, placement, etc.) 2) I've got a couple of young nephews who come to visit periodically, and having stand-mounted speakers would not be very secure in that situation.

I like the tonal balance of the Image 4Ts--the bass is tight, and the mids and highs have enough sparkle to satisfy my needs.

[Chris D]

Jimmy,
This is for you. It seems everyone has shouted me down on Missions, but I just love mine. The people I've recommended them to -- my brother and close friends -- love them, too.
One thing about them: the 700 line has about the deepest cabinets of any relatively small footprint bookshelk speaker I've ever seen.
Audio Advisor has a great deal on demo 781s. They're fully warranted. Here's the description.




Clearance 781 Bookshelf Speakers in Black - Pair -- DEMO



Mission
781 Bookshelf Speakers in Black - Pair -- DEMO
SKU: DMMIS781BL
$399.95
Quantity

Usually ships within 1 business
day.
( $20.95 / $30.95 )





Big Bass Bookshelf Bargains

The name Mission turns audiophile heads. And the performance of these full-frequency bookshelf
speakers will spin some ears as well. The Mission 781 compacts were acclaimed for their great value when
they first hit the market. They're an even better value now at our not-to-be-missed close out prices.

Modest Size, Huge Sound

The Mission 781 may be modest in size, but its performance potential is huge. It achieves a
three-dimensional soundstage, extensive bandwidth, and impressive dynamic range from the smallest
possible cabinet dimensions.

The 6.5" Keraform woofer is closely matched to a resonance-free reflex enclosure for full-bodied bass
extension. The driver is exceptionally light yet rigid for maximum transient attack, and the low frequency
performance extends it punch and reach beyond that of its smaller brother, the Mission 780. The 1"
silk-dome, ferrofluid-cooled tweeter has an advanced controlled dispersion surround to match the midrange
performance with smooth, finely detailed treble.

List: $999.

Computer-Designed Cabinet

The computer-designed cabinet structure maximizes the output of the Keraform drivers by providing a
solid, resonance-free support. The main enclosure walls are built from ultra-rigid 1.2"-thick MDF securing
the transverse folded section which forms the floor, front, and rear baffles. Interior cabinet walls are
sculpted to scatter internal sound reflections, while these areas are filled with acoustic foam to help
absorb standing waves.

The small size and big sonic performance make the Mission 781 a great choice for a compact hi-fi system
or home theater use. Power handling is 50 to 175 watts per channel. Bi-wirable binding posts let you
squeeze every last performance advantage from this fine loudspeaker.

Regularly: $499.95/pair

[Jimmy Cantiello]

Thanks, Chris. The information will come in handy. The Missions do seem to get good reviews all around and they're not ridiculously expensive...........................

[Tanager]

I don't think anyone shouted you down on Missions - I just shouted up what I know and have. I know several peeps who like Mission speakers in addition to you, Chris, so I don't doubt they're fine speakers.

[Chris D]

Tanager,
I tend toward hyperbole. I just wanted Jimmy to notice, and he did.

[Tanager]

Yah, noted, and of late, I've tended way towards being oversensitive, which I need to stop doing. :/

[Tom Storer]

Originally posted by Jimmy Cantiello
Higher end equipment reproduces the music more realistically with less coloration.

See, this always gives me pause. Realistic compared to what? Most of my live listening takes place in jazz clubs with imperfect amplification and people chattering on my left and right. If I sit in the back the music sounds different than when I sit in the front. In concert halls, compared to the clubs, some things are better about the sound and some things are worse. What is this reality higher end audio reproduces, and does it matter that it is one no one ever experiences?

If one is used to hearing music from run-of-the-mill equipment he doesn't even realize what he's missing. I'll be willing to bet if you played your music on Shrugs' equipment you would be astounded.

Yeah, probably. But I just can't make the effort to get from here to there. There are so many other things to obsess about and spend money on.

[Chazro]

Wazzup Fellas!

All this talk about bookshelf speakers got me to wondering if those of you that have them are actually placing them on bookshelves. Just so you know, even the smallest bookshelf speaker benefits mightily from being placed on a speaker stand. Don't take my word on it, take 'em off the shelf and place them on anything away from the walls and just sit back and give'em a listen, chances are you'll be hearing them the way the designer meant for them to be heard!

Tom, your point about listening to audio vs. live music is certainly valid. But I think it's part of a misunderstanding that the goal of good sounding gear is to reproduce the live experience. Audio equipment has as much chance of reproducing reality as a television does. The simple fact is no matter how much one puts into a system it will never, I repeat, never equal the sound of live music. The goal is to be able to hear the subtlety, nuances, and details of not only the musician and his instrument, but even the room that he's recording in. For the longest time I felt that acoustic jazz from the 50's and 60's was recorded in such a way that the bass was barely audible and tubby sounding. Imagine my surprise and delight when I finally put together a system capable of extracting what's in the grooves! It's there, I just didn't have the right set-up to hear it. With proper sounding equipment you get closer to hearing what the musicians heard at the time of the recording, one hears the experience, the intent of the moment.

I would strongly recommend to anyone that has a passion for music (all of us!!) to go out and buy a pair of Grado or Seinheiser headphones and a dedicated headphone amplifier. Both can be found on Ebay for less than list. Than just plug in a portable CD player and prepare to be floored! The usual headphone jack found in your CD player or reciever or whatever is woefully inadequate, usually an afterthought on the manufacturers part and done in the cheapest way possible. A dedicated headphone amp is a revelation and an easy way to experience high-end sound on the cheap (although totally different from listening to a system set-up properly with speakers in front of you...).

Those of us that watch a superior TV aren't expecting it to look as if it's happening live in front of us but the video quality is still easily appreciated. I think it's intereresting to note the overwhelming emergence of the home theater phenomenon as opposed to the high end audio experience which has been on the decline ever since the advent of MTV. What does this say about sensory perception with our eyes vs. our ears?? Whoa!! Gettin' a little too deep here fellas, sorry!

[Tanager]

No decent speaker belongs on a shelf. Mine are on 18" steel stands, filled with sand, resting via carpet spikes on the subfloor, tweeters very close to the same height as my ears when I sit on my listening couch.

For good stands, I recommend Parts Express - I paid in the mid-50s for mine, and that is a really good price for solid (13 lbs apiece w/o the sand) stands. If you need something beefier, they also make a high-mass model (not sure of the weight, but it's on their website). Stands are *definitely* worth the investment.

[Tom Storer]

Tanager, can you recommend high-end listening couches? I confess I just sit on my normal couch when I listen to music. ;-)

[Jimmy Cantiello]

Originally posted by Chazro
Wazzup Fellas!

Imagine my surprise and delight when I finally put together a system capable of extracting what's in the grooves! It's there, I just didn't have the right set-up to hear it. With proper sounding equipment you get closer to hearing what the musicians heard at the time of the recording, one hears the experience, the intent of the moment.

That's what I'm talkin' about! Listening to music with an inadequate system is like listening to music being played in a tunnel or basement. I love it when people come over to my house and suddenly look up and think someone is in the room when all it is is the stereo speakers. They can't tell that the sounds are coming out of the speakers because the sounds are right there in the room with them...............

[shrugs]

I ate a lot of peanut butter sandwiches for lunch but it was worth it.

[Troy D]

Originally posted by Tom Storer
See, this always gives me pause. Realistic compared to what? Most of my live listening takes place in jazz clubs with imperfect amplification and people chattering on my left and right. If I sit in the back the music sounds different than when I sit in the front. In concert halls, compared to the clubs, some things are better about the sound and some things are worse. What is this reality higher end audio reproduces, and does it matter that it is one no one ever experiences?

There's definitely truth to this. Those who say that a good system should reproduce the "live" music experience are searching for an elusive ideal indeed. For one thing, I've been to plenty of shows where I wouldn't want that particular mix reproduced--where you wish they would just leave the musicians alone, rather than miking everything and thus distorting the end result.

As far as I'm concerned, the only real value to having better equipment is that it makes the music more enjoyable to listen to. Here's where I think you get the biggest gain from moving up from mass-fi products. In my old system I had crappy Infinity bookshelfs, which were connected to a cheap Technics CD changer and Pioneer receiver. This served me well until I started getting seriously into my music listening. Once I began sitting down and listening to consecutive CDs for hours on end, I found it very fatiguing--the treble was emphasized to the extreme, and I couldn't stand too much before I simply had to turn the thing off and do something else (that, or turn the volume down to a level where it was no longer annoying, but where it was also much harder to appreciate what was on the recording). I could adjust the tone controls, sure--but that always resulted in making things muddy and undefined.

Once I got a better set of gear (and let me emphasize that I'm not talking about audio extravagance here--all my gear is pretty much entry-level hi fi), I found it so much more pleasurable to relax and listen to tons of music without becoming fatigued--with the sound evenly balanced, all the detail is there but I no longer have to deal with ear-assaulting treble. Do I think my system is closer to the "live" listening experience? No idea--in fact, probably not, although I do think that it's less artificially exaggerated in the top-end. I just know that with this system, I long for opportunities to turn it on and just listen--and that's not something I could say for my old, mass-market system.

[Tanager]

For me, it's not so much about being more realistic (although I'm guessing my new setup is probably considerably more accurate than the old one), since in most cases, I really have no idea what the "real" thing sounded like (not ever having gotten to listen to Bird live, I'm sorta not able to judge that accurately).

One of the biggest things to me is the detail - being able to hear all the parts clearly (assuming it was recorded that way, of course) and (as Troy notes) without having listener fatigue induced is a huge motivation. I do think that quality equipment is *probably* more accurate in general, but it's by no means *provably* so. And each piece does color the sound somewhat, despite what zealots of this or that maker/format will claim. If you like a certain sound, then get that sound, by all means - there's nothing "wrong" about preferences.

Tom, as for couches, I favor the Listenomatic 2000R from SoundSofas. Includes a beer fridge in the base, cup/bottle holders, and in integrated remote. It's really the best budget audiophile sofa out there. If you have more $$$, I suggest the ComfortInConsonance RomanRecliner listening sofa, as it includes adjustable height base (in case you got the wrong size stands) and full reclining comfort. Plan to spend about $2000 for the Listenomatic, maybe $3500 for the Roman.

[shrugs]

It all comes down to reproduction. Certain equipment just does it better. Analog gives you more of the information.
You ears will love you for it.
Maybe hear recorded drums and bass for the first time how they were supposed to be heard.
Or instruments like the vibraphone, guitar, organ, harpsichord. Digital doesn't do them very well.

[Jimmy Cantiello]

When I say "realistic" I mean hearing the music with no extraneous additions such as too much bass, reverberation, and that shitty muffled sound you get from cheap speakers. Also, when it comes to listening to the radio, if you're working with a very good receiver or, better yet, a seperate tuner, you actually get to hear music that's crystal clear with no pops, buzzes, fading and interference from the station next to the one you're trying to listen to...................