What statement best captures your view of boxing?

[crawjo]

Right now I'm reading a really interesting book about boxing and American society:



And so I thought I'd do a little unscientific poll to see how people view the sport. Also, I made this multiple choice, so you can pick more than one statement if you like.

[jesus marion joseph]

I'm an unabashed fight fan.

I used to like it, but it's gone down hill badly over the last few years.

[Captain Hate]

I checked the 'enjoyable at its best' but it's a bit more complex than that. It is a disgustingly brutal excuse for a sport that appeals to the lowest instincts in mob behavior and is occupied with slugs that are lower than whale shit. Having said that, I *do* get a certain guilty pleasure when somebody electrifying like Thomas "Hitman" Hearns comes along. Almost nobody these days does that for me but the Motor City Cobra could put a charge in anything.

[jesus marion joseph]

Yeah, he put a real charge into Marvin Hagler. Haw!

[Captain Hate]

Early in his career, jmj, he couldn't be touched.

[jesus marion joseph]

I know, I'm just being a general pain in the ass.

[Captain Hate]

You're just testy from the lack of Tarheel love on the NBA thread.

[Dr Dave]

For boxing fans of a Certain Age, everything connected with the sport is sort of anticlimax. We grew up with Muhummad Ali (Cassius Marcellus Clay was a grand old name), the undisputed genius of heavyweight boxing. There has been no one to fill his shoes.

PS: My friend Nick grew up in Brockton. As he says, "I knew Marvin Hagler when he hit girls."

[Monte Smith]

Boxing at its best is a simple and fine sport. I have certainly enjoyed bouts in my time, and I still do enjoy bouts that I see: anonymous journeyman taking one another apart. I voted "Enjoyable at its best," which boxing has hardly ever been. It isn't just corruption and greed that has destroyed the sport. Societal neglect has played its part--so has societal frenzy when some celebrity champeen has come on the scene. I hate to see a thug vaulted to the parthenon of excellence.

At its best though! Boxing is so simple. The better dancer, the fleeter fist. The dodger and the lunger. The thick skull versus the chess master. Now that is athletics.

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

Boxing at its best is a simple and fine sport. I have certainly enjoyed bouts in my time, and I still do enjoy bouts that I see: anonymous journeyman taking one another apart. I voted "Enjoyable at its best," which boxing has hardly ever been. It isn't just corruption and greed that has destroyed the sport. Societal neglect has played its part--so has societal frenzy when some celebrity champeen has come on the scene. I hate to see a thug vaulted to the parthenon of excellence.

At its best though! Boxing is so simple. The better dancer, the fleeter fist. The dodger and the lunger. The thick skull versus the chess master. Now that is athletics.

Amen.

[walto]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

I checked the 'enjoyable at its best' but it's a bit more complex than that. It is a disgustingly brutal excuse for a sport that appeals to the lowest instincts in mob behavior and is occupied with slugs that are lower than whale shit. Having said that, I *do* get a certain guilty pleasure when somebody electrifying like Thomas "Hitman" Hearns comes along. Almost nobody these days does that for me but the Motor City Cobra could put a charge in anything.

That's a good statement of my love/hate relationship, too. I hate watching somebody get beat up--except, disgustingly, when I'm rooting for the other guy. Kind of gross, really.

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by walto

That's a good statement of my love/hate relationship, too. I hate watching somebody get beat up--except, disgustingly, when I'm rooting for the other guy. Kind of gross, really.

Bingo on that Walter. I remember back when boxing used to be on network tv quite a bit and I used to absolutely hate Matthew Saad Muhammad; he was the most boring boxer alive and used to absorb a shitload of punishment until his opponent got tired after pounding his empty head and he'd come back on them. Then one day he took on this guy with the last name of Braxton, who didn't get tired of pounding him until finally he went down. I felt like one sick SOB for enjoying somebody getting blasted into probable permanent damage-ville.

[Jon Abbey]

I remember watching the Boom Boom Mancini-Duk Koo Kim fight on national TV (remember, back when you didn't have to shell out $40 or more to watch a high-profile fiasco), and the announcers kept talking about how impressed they were with Kim's resilience, his lack of quit, on and on. then he died.

on the other hand, they're adults, they know the risks they're taking, at least generally, and the possible rewards. playing in the NFL isn't much better for someone, healthwise.

[walto]

I don't disagree with that, Jon, but the same kind of bloodlust doesn't seem to be there -- even in more dangerous sports. I've often felt really disgusted with myself after a boxing match--whoever won. To me, there's a creepiness in intentional concussion seeking--especially amidst a roaring crowd.

Still, I can't deny, I've gotten my thrills.

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

You're just testy from the lack of Tarheel love on the NBA thread.

Bastards.

[crawjo]

In the book that I'm reading, Kaye talks about the rise in popularity of boxing in the years following the Civil War. Citing the arguments that others have made regarding boxing's relationship to society, Kaye writes:

"Gail Bederman, meanwhile, has shown how boxing became implicated in the process by which male gender roles were reconceived during the Progressive Era. As Victorian values of self-restraint unraveled and fears regarding male decadence arose, the cultivation of physical power became an antidote to effeminacy. As a way to shore up manhood, the boxing ring became a stage for the middle-class man to recover his natural vigor, to unlearn the harmful regimen of civilized self-control."

I'm not sure about that bit about "middle-class" men, unless he means that middle-class men redeem their "natural" vigor vicariously by watching boxing matches. Or perhaps, in the Progressive Era, boxers were more likely to come from the middle class.

Are you guys familiar with George Bellows' painting, "Members of This Club"?

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by walto

Still, I can't deny, I've gotten my thrills.

On another thread, Bluenoter was telling us how we need a leap forward in moral evolution. And who can deny that, except to demur that it is unlikely? Boxing is the moral status quo or when we hope, we believe it is a throw back. Boxing is a sport that doesn't just connect us with the apes, it connects us with the Spartans. And the Athenians, too. You can't get more human than two guys stripped to the waist in an odeon. Human nature has a brutal aspect that we can neither much outgrow nor deny nor deny the appeal of. We're stuck. But I have never met a fight fan who didn't feel conflicted about the brutality of the sport.

[crawjo]

Do you guys think fighters should be required to wear headgear, like they do in the Olympics? Or has that been shown not to be very effective in preventing serious injury?

[Sergio Zamora]

I don't watch sports too much, but my dad digs boxing, so when I'm home I pretend to be interested. He doesn't really like heavyweights (probably because there are no Mexicans).

I don't have much of an opinion either way. Objectively, I can say it is pretty bloodlusty, but as Jon mentioned, it's not like it's Conan the Barbarian, where they're forced to fight or anything.

Back in the neighborhood in Mexico, when I was around 14-15, we'd put on the boxing gloves and have little matches in the street. I was slow, and not that strong for my weight, but I could sure take a beating real good. That helped me out in street fights as well.

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

On another thread, Bluenoter was telling us how we need a leap forward in moral evolution. And who can deny that, except to demur that it is unlikely? Boxing is the moral status quo or when we hope, we believe it is a throw back. Boxing is a sport that doesn't just connect us with the apes, it connects us with the Spartans. And the Athenians, too. You can't get more human than two guys stripped to the waist in an odeon. Human nature has a brutal aspect that we can neither much outgrow nor deny nor deny the appeal of. We're stuck. But I have never met a fight fan who didn't feel conflicted about the brutality of the sport.

Not a leap, Monte. Mere progress will do, either steady or in fits and starts. And you don't have to contemplate history for more than five seconds to see that some things that were once acceptable in society--say, our society--no longer are. In other words, progress has been made, and there's every reason to expect that progress will continue to be made. Okay, I see that on the other thread, I said that "it behooves us to speed up our evolution as civilized human beings." I guess I'm just impatient--I mean, killing people as a means of advancing a cause or resolving a conflict is so 20th century.

But about boxing, I have some of the same mixed feelings that others on this thread do. The "sport" sickens me, but I've taken guilty pleasure in clips of two fighters dancing around the ring and the hype surrounding big fights.

[Enforcer]

I love boxing at its best, but it's getting harder and harder to find that. Boxing is one of the great sports in that it consists of pure competition between two individuals. There are no teammates in boxing. You don't have to share credit with anyone else for a win, and you can't blame anyone else for a loss. It has that in common with chess. Both are played for blood, but in boxing it's literal.

Larry

[Gentle Giant]

For me, Ali is literally the alpha and omega of boxing. He was the first boxer I knew about and I always enjoyed watching him (and his bouts!). After his last couple of fights and ugly retirement, seeing what the "sport" had done to him, I gave it up.

I'd rather listen to Jack Johnson or watch Raging Bull or Rocky I or II.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

Boxing is one of the great sports in that it consists of pure competition between two individuals. There are no teammates in boxing. You don't have to share credit with anyone else for a win, and you can't blame anyone else for a loss. It has that in common with chess. Both are played for blood, but in boxing it's literal.

yes, this is a good point, the same reason that I really enjoy watching high-level tennis, and a large part of the reason I was a fencer for so long (ten years), competing on a pretty high level.

fencing actually combines some of the characteristics of boxing (the footwork, moving in and out so that you are in range but your opponent falls short) and chess (thinking a few moves ahead, doing something so your opponent will react in a certain way that you can take advantage of), with far, far less of the physical risk (although I recall one guy dying at a world-level competition when one sword broke in the middle of an action, and the now sharp point went through the mask and through his opponent's eye. that's a 1 in 10 million chance, though).

anyone really interested in boxing should make it a point to read A.J. Liebling's collected New Yorker columns in The Sweet Science, which looks to be currently out of print, but reissued again in September. even if you don't care about boxing, it's worth reading, great writer.

[mke]

What about Thai boxing? Now that's bloodthirsty.

I saw a short documentary about the kid thai boxing betting business in Thailand. Kids as young as four or five being put in rings and adults betting on them. A bookie said that many adults found it more fun to watch than grown-up bouts. Mothers were at ringside, cheering their babies on. It's been illegal for a few years, but carries on.

[Mingus]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

PS: My friend Nick grew up in Brockton. As he says, "I knew Marvin Hagler when he hit girls."

[Boris Badenov]

"although I recall one guy dying at a world-level competition when one sword broke in the middle of an action, and the now sharp point went through the mask and through his opponent's eye. that's a 1 in 10 million chance, though"

If the point went through his opponent's eye, what did he die from? Shame?

[stonemonkts]

I loved Ali growing up, from his beautiful bouts (no one could touch him pre-exile) to his draft-dodging, and his magnificent match against the monster George Foreman in Zaire. He was a hero of sorts.

I honestly stopped following it the very same night Howard Cosell claims he had enough...listening to Tex Cobb get pummeled round after round by Larry Holmes...the sound made by those punches was sickening.

I was a big fan of Duran, Hearns, and Hagler back in the day (anyone but Leonard).

I wonder how the young Tyson would've fared versus George Foreman circa 1973. I've always maintained that Foreman would've killed him.

Anyway, boxing at its best is something to see, especially live and up close.

[tippy]

There are few things more satisfying than punching someone in the head.

[Canuck Don]

Hockey is my fav. sport,then boxing.I have been watching boxing on tv since the mid 1950's .Wed night fights . and the Fri. night fights.Watching boxers like Kid Gavilan,Bobo Olson, Archie Moore and my fav. boxer in those days Suger Ray Robinson.What a smoothy he was in his prime.Then came Ali. My all time fav.boxer.Boxing has changed so much since the 1950's. Lots more tv ,media coverage.The hype both boxers put on at the weigh ins.The music some of the boxers have played while entering the ring. The advertising some boxers have tatotoed on their backs.Sometimes it's like watching the Rocky movie and how Appolo Creed enters the ring.Lots of stuff that I don't like too much.Lots of fixed fights way back when but I wonder how much is still done to-day. I look at promoters like Don King and wonder how many fights he has had rigged in the last 25 years.I sometime wonder about some of the judges at ringside if they are paid under the table to alter the decision.We all have seen fights that one certain boxer is totally dominating the whole fight .A sure winner,Then the judges cards are read and the guy loses.Even the announcers are surpised. Money talks ,so who knows.But all in all I will still watch it because I love the sport or whatever name you call it.