Music Talk At JC

[Gary Sisco]

I know I'm not the only one who feels this way, so I'm going to bring it up. Does anyone else here miss the reason why we started using this place to begin with -- and for many, JCS before that?

I know that I'm as political as anyone else here, but the reason I began using JCS and then moved here, and the reason I became friends with a bunch of regulars here, is music and talking about music. There isn't anyone I can think of offhand here with whom I agree about politics, apart perhaps from this or that single issue, seen as a single issue. I'm not a repub or a dem, so the endless back and forth about that between people who couldn't possibly persuade or even make points with the other, has grown tiresome and then some. Nearly everyone has already made up his or her mind about the election, already. I wish they'd just hold it and get it over with. Maybe then we could go back to talking music again.

If not, JC is going to become one of the most boring sites on the web, instead of one of the best, as it should be. I'd bet any money that the huge bulk of Lois's hits are not music related anymore, and I think that's a shame. There's a huge wealth of music knowledge here, and of knowledgable and intelligent people. It's a shame to see the place becoming so dull and, well, mundane. I can hear this kind of back and forth at the local diner. More of it than I want to hear. I can't hear a lot of good music talk from people who know what their talking about.

Anyway, just thought I'd say on the board what a lot of regulars have said when they're able to have personal conversations. Comments?

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by Rainman

Does anyone else here miss the reason why we started using this place to begin with

Yes, I've commented on this more than once. The politics here aren't exactly a joke, because there are some earnest people contributing; but if I wanted to seriously discuss politics this is one of the last places I'd come to.

I know he did it in a very offensive manner, but Gary's point is what Alex was complaining about. Although as an excuse for all involved, sometimes you just run out of things to say about music. Not to sound like a skipping record, but Reynolds would often be the seed crystal that would stimulate discussion.

[Gary Sisco]

Perhaps we could all try to at least ask more about some of the many hundreds of records too often only listed on the WAYLT threads. Something has to give, here, or soon it will be pointless to even check the site, IM always HO. Like the good Capt, for me this is also the last place I expect to find (or even want) serious political discussions. In fact, there aren't any discussions. There's just endless ponging and personalizing. There's very little that actually political about it, which is why it gets so deadly dull. It's like reading a transcript of one of those talking head shows where everyone's yelling at each other at the same time and none of them give a shit about what the other guy's saying anyway, nor do any of the listeners. It's about points (I guess, not having another rational deduction) not politics.

Politics is a word that means "management of the community," the polis. A subject only very rarely discussed, here or anywhere else, for that matter. The stuff here differs very little from choosing baseball teams, really.

[Jon Abbey]

Alex pretty much never contributed anything to music discussions either here, and I don't think he's ever posted on Bagatellen, which he held up as a place where people "really discuss music". his theory behind posting seemed to almost always just be to write something as extreme as possible, whether or not he really believed it, and sit back and watch how people responded, not very interesting to me.

CapHate:

"sometimes you just run out of things to say about music."

this to me quite possibly means you're not listening to the right music (for you personally). if there's not much left to say about the music, maybe that says something about the actual music.

[Uli]

For me, the music talk on JC has turned into a veritable nerdfest, mainly lead by raters and agenda pushers.

[Cem]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

if there's not much left to say about the music, maybe that says something about the actual music.

Lack of interest in talking about music does not mean that music is in decline or nothing new or whatever.

The jazzfest started here on Friday. I haven't written about a single show. Why? Because I suck at it & haven't had the time. Also, I go through phases with writing about music. Lately, I really want to just experience stuff & not even wanna hear people talk about it outside the show. At times, something about that just irks me... All those discussions on music last fall (?) were way too tedius. Feel free, but I'm not interested. Analyzing the hell out of music is not a favourite pasttime for me. Exchanging info on WAYLT is great. As soon as that thread disappears, then we should worry.

[Sorry, Jon, I won't be following you on this shortcut to eai... ]

[stonemonkts]

Originally Posted by Uli

For me, the music talk on JC has turned into a veritable nerdfest, mainly lead by raters and agenda pushers.

...and lest we forget the ubiquitous snide snipe.

[crawjo]

Of course, I've started a couple of threads similar to this one. Every now and then you see one of the political back-and-forths turn into a real political discussion, but I agree that it is very rare.

But talking about music is harder to do than talking about current events. And, let's face it, we do happen to live in a moment in our history where current events are going to dominate what people are thinking about, and thus, what they want to talk about. There is a war going on, after all. If we were yelling back and forth at each other about a prescription drug plan, that would be one thing, but when it is about people dying it becomes something else.

But at any rate, I'm always game for more musical discussions. The way that happens though, is that instead of starting a thread like this one, you have to start a thread about music. Gary, what's on your mind when it comes to music? That's the way music threads start. I know that I could probably start a new thread every time I hear an album that I really like, but I figure that after awhile people would grow tired of me doing that, and well, it seems a little self-indulgent to me.

[Cem]

Originally Posted by Rainman

Politics is a word that means "management of the community," the polis. A subject only very rarely discussed, here or anywhere else, for that matter. The stuff here differs very little from choosing baseball teams, really.

I agree with you Gary & I confess, I'm one of the negative "contributers". Majority of folk refuse to give an inch, so it becomes a battle for power, just as the subject matter is about the distribution of power. I thought, the political discussions became a little more lively, when crawjo arrived, but I can't say I dig his recent contributions as much (not a slag, just opinion).

Anyway, I'm here for the fluff & to be with folks who share an interest in similar music as what moves me. I enjoy poking in & out of political threads once in a while. I read almost all music threads. I would welcome music threads that inform me about stuff I haven't yet heard and that's a lot!

btw, shouldn't this thread be in Speak Out? Maybe, not enough folks go there now...

[Chazro]

Wazzup All!

I pretty much feel that the zing at this site is fading for me. When I 1st started hangin' here, after the demise of JCS, I felt an excitement about the scope, variety, and intelligence of the posters. Unfortunately, that's faded for me. It seems that a certain genre of Jazz seems to dominate most discussion here and, since I'm not into that type of music, I find it mind-numbingly boring. The dialog in the Alley that supposedly passes as "debate" is equally frustrating. Extremist one-upmanship seems to be the rule of the day. Besides, as mentioned before, this is NOT the place I come to for political enlightenment. Perhaps some of the old-timers can recall when the misc. column here and at JCS used to be a blast!! Add to my frustration something that's happened to me 2-3 times which is posting a lengthy writing about something only to have it disappear when I submit it. I've gone from not writing very often to lurking 99% of the time, and find myself doing it less and less. No answers here, I just wonder whether this trend bodes well for the future of this site, I doubt that I'm the only one feeling this way

[gnhrtg]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

CapHate:

"sometimes you just run out of things to say about music."

this to me quite possibly means you're not listening to the right music (for you personally). if there's not much left to say about the music, maybe that says something about the actual music.

And what might that be Jon? Not missing any chance that comes your way, are you?

Edit: Oh yes and re-Uli's comments, if we ever have enough time or meet in person (both unlikely) I'll be more than glad to hear your arguments against ratings and top-ten lists. I'll tell you one use they have for me, though, a good deal of help when selecting what to start with regarding musicians with sizeable ouvres. I also find year top-ten lists to be very valuable to bring to my attention particular artists or releases which might float my boat but have, for some reason, gone unnoticed. I think it's better than giving someone a blank stare in the face when they ask for rec's regarding certain genres of music or output of a musician - any recommendation that one makes or any choice is not conceptually different than making a ranking at a discrete point in time. Of course we know they change and why 10 and not 5 or whatever, but all those considered, much better in my opinion to still go with it than not speaking at all.

[Jon Abbey]

give me a break, Gokhan, I post in maybe 1 out of every 10 musical threads I read here. I didn't think what Captain Hate said held true for me, or for any serious music listeners I know in the real world (meaning not just online), so I posted about that, not mentioning any specific kinds of music, and not meaning to refer just to "eai".

also, I'm pretty sick of you jumping on so many of my posts and making me further clarify myself. my only agenda is my love of (some) music, I could give a shit about "converting" any new listeners. listen to whatever floats your boat, but there must be some reason that this complaint crops up so frequently on this site, which is what I was trying to address, as opposed to staying out of the discussion, as I usually do.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Chazro

Wazzup All!

I pretty much feel that the zing at this site is fading for me. When I 1st started hangin' here, after the demise of JCS, I felt an excitement about the scope, variety, and intelligence of the posters. Unfortunately, that's faded for me. It seems that a certain genre of Jazz seems to dominate most discussion here and, since I'm not into that type of music, I find it mind-numbingly boring. The dialog in the Alley that supposedly passes as "debate" is equally frustrating. Extremist one-upmanship seems to be the rule of the day. Besides, as mentioned before, this is NOT the place I come to for political enlightenment. Perhaps some of the old-timers can recall when the misc. column here and at JCS used to be a blast!! Add to my frustration something that's happened to me 2-3 times which is posting a lengthy writing about something only to have it disappear when I submit it. I've gone from not writing very often to lurking 99% of the time, and find myself doing it less and less. No answers here, I just wonder whether this trend bodes well for the future of this site, I doubt that I'm the only one feeling this way

Chazro, good to see you here. I agree that a certain style of music seems to dominate what musical discussions exist on this board, but if you have different tastes, then I would see that as giving you a good opportunity to make your own valuable contribution to the board. Or maybe this has been tried without success. I don't know.

Cem, sorry to hear that my political contributions have slipped recently, but I can't say that I disagree with your assessment. Being in such a polarized atmosphere probably hasn't helped me very much in that respect. Last night I actually felt that we started to have a good discussion going in the Fahrenheit 9/11 thread, about the Saudi-U.S. relationship, but maybe I was the only one who felt that way.

[crawjo]

I also just want to say that I really admire you folks who have strong political opinions but also possess enough self-control to stay out of the bitter political threads. I wish I could be more like that.

[Jon Abbey]

and the real problem with this site is that pretty much every thread quickly degenerates into metadiscussion. people (including myself at times) seem to prefer talking about why they're not talking about music as opposed to simply talking about music. and, yes, that gets predictable and old.

[Cem]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

and the real problem with this site is that pretty much every thread quickly degenerates into metadiscussion. people (including myself at times) seem to prefer talking about why they're not talking about music as opposed to simply talking about music. and, yes, that gets predictable and old.

Agreed.

[gnhrtg]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

also, I'm pretty sick of you jumping on so many of my posts and making me further clarify myself.

Fine, Jon. You didn't have to and not that I ask you, or others, about every point they're trying to make but just those where I think there's some latent/implicit message. I will, though, refrain from further such comments and jumping on your posts, now that I know your sick of it.

[Cem]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Last night I actually felt that we started to have a good discussion going in the Fahrenheit 9/11 thread, about the Saudi-U.S. relationship...

Agreed.

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

this to me quite possibly means you're not listening to the right music (for you personally). if there's not much left to say about the music, maybe that says something about the actual music.

Point well taken but, since I'm usually later to get to releases than others here, by the time I get to it I can't add anything to what's already been discussed. I'm as opinionated as anybody (rightly or otherwise) but there's no sense in me reiterating what others have posted.

I'll assume that your subsequent reference to me wasn't meant as a slam.

[Jon Abbey]

thanks, Gokhan. obviously I have extremely strong opinions about music, but I very carefully choose my words on this site when posting in music threads.

back to my original statement: is it such a stretch to consider that if what you're listening to, be it jazz or eai or harmolodic gospel punk, doesn't inspire you to ever say anything about it, maybe you should consider listening to other things if you're going to participate in a music discussion site? I have more than 6000 CDs in my collection, only a fraction of which have anything to do with eai. for instance, my summer discman listening has mostly been the recent Ghostface, Masta Killa, Madvillain and Kanye West releases.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

Point well taken but, since I'm usually later to get to releases than others here, by the time I get to it I can't add anything to what's already been discussed. I'm as opinionated as anybody (rightly or otherwise) but there's no sense in me reiterating what others have posted.

I'll assume that your subsequent reference to me wasn't meant as a slam.

I'll second that, Capt. I get to a lot of this stuff much later than everybody else, and it is hard to go back to an album that everybody discussed months ago and try to make your own points.

[Jon Abbey]

I'm personally always interested in reading new takes on records I'm interested in, particularly ones that people deeply connect with, even if they overlap a lot with what other people have already written. sometimes reopening an old discussion can lead to a whole new wave of thoughts, although it's true that that's more likely just after something has been released when a bunch of people are absorbing it roughly simultaneously.

[tippy]

I don't know, let's not resign ourselves and throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think JC has been in a slow-deterioration since the hatred that's come about since 9/11. There's a lot of really angry energy here that I find unpleasant and makes me less willing to invest in valid conversations. That's just my thoughts on the subject. I used to enjoy speak out, I stopped for some reason--I guess I find the arbitration of taste put on a hierarchical scale to be, not useless because it is enjoyable to read considerate posts by people who love to talk about why they love the musics they are listening to, but sort of denigrating at times to my own enjoyment of music and how meaningful it is to me--which I cannot put successfully into words so I stopped trying. If being a contributor to the music threads is a necessary condition for legitimate residency at JC--please just ban me now.

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

I'm personally always interested in reading new takes on records I'm interested in, particularly ones that people deeply connect with, even if they overlap a lot with what other people have already written. sometimes reopening an old discussion can lead to a whole new wave of thoughts, although it's true that that's more likely just after something has been released when a bunch of people are absorbing it roughly simultaneously.

I'm always interested in how well recordings hold up through time; in fact I'm perpetually bugging Nate and JCB to find out if music that they've reviewed positively in Cadence still has an appeal to them after the newness has faded.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I also just want to say that I really admire you folks who have strong political opinions but also possess enough self-control to stay out of the bitter political threads. I wish I could be more like that.

I have extremely strong political opinions, and in this house that I share with my wife and sons, the television is on "civics" programs - all political all the time, except for when the Cardinals are on - but when I come to JC I frequently try to jump in the middle of a "losing" (because it's not going anywhere and people are losing their minds at each other) thread and say what I always say, "Come over to my thread and talk." Not to talk about me or my music, unless you really want to do that, but to talk about the wonderful stories and histories and the tragedies and difficulties and the uplifting of tired spirits that this music has done for all of us, before the Jazz Honeymoon was over for us all.

If this debate had started over on my thread, very few people would have noticed it and participated, not because my thread isn't interesting, but because people don't really pay much attention to the "everyday" expressions of life anymore (as opposed to the knee-jerk salivating jump-down-my-throat my-opinion-is-more-valid-than-yours thread that so many at JC are now addicted to). The magic is always found in the subtle, if we would only take a deep breath and calm our spirits and head over to Ellery's or Robin's threads.

The "What are you listening to" threads could be so much more than lists...ever so often someone comes back with a question or a comment, but this is the place to say why you are listening...what originally fascinated you...what has been lost in the repeated listenings...how it helped you get past a certain point in your life...

Anyway, you get my point. Come and see me, not to talk about me, but to say what's on your mind...in a civil way, please.

[RainyDay]

It's hard to participate in a discussion when you have folks waiting to judge your taste in music. People welcome new folks then carve them up for dinner when they ask newbie questions. There is this "too hip for the room" syndrome that is not conducive to discussion about much of anything. And there is a nasty tone here that has evolved over the last couple of years that makes it generally unpleasant to be here. A few posts in this thread are a good example of what I'm talking about.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by tippy

I guess I find the arbitration of taste put on a hierarchical scale to be, not useless because it is enjoyable to read considerate posts by people who love to talk about why they love the musics they are listening to, but sort of denigrating at times to my own enjoyment of music and how meaningful it is to me...

There is no hierarchy at Ask DG, tippy.In fact, when certain JC'ers (most of whom decided to leave because of this hierarchichal persecution) came over and talked about their love of Smooth Jazz , there was frequently a poetry in their words that was absolutely beautiful, and I always wished that sort of innocence in the listeners of other genres. Never have I said anything derogatory about the musics that people love, because I think they are listening to what they want, for the reasons they have, and I am not one to judge what it is they listen to. Quite the opposite. I thrive on the beauty of another human being's loves and its expression. I love the poetry of a post by Rainy Day on the latest music she's heard, and the ecstatic musical ravings of a Scott Dolan.

I am joyful about the advent of eai - I'm working on some eai music at this time - and I am happy for those that love avant-jazz, and bebop, and fusion, and groove, and fill in the blank, because it is all good.

[tippy]

Thanks, Dennis. I'll make sure I visit your thread.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

because it is all good.

Good for you, Dennis. But I think it's gotta be all superb!

[Dan G]

I wish I had more time to listen to music, so I could talk about it. I think I've listened to about 5 discs this month (heard more, in the background, but to just listen well enough to discuss, no).

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

[B]The "What are you listening to" threads could be so much more than lists...ever so often someone comes back with a question or a comment, but this is the place to say why you are listening...what originally fascinated you...what has been lost in the repeated listenings...how it helped you get past a certain point in your life...
[B]

I would love too see that, and tried it a few times when I first started posting here (and had more time). Never could figure out the point of just a list, without at least a sentence of commentary on the album.