Do you like "EAI" music?

[crawjo]

Yes, I know that electro-acoustic improvisation has its own thread, but I thought I'd do a quick poll to see if people dig this type of music. My exposure to EAI started a few months ago with "Duos for Doris", and I've been slowly working my way through parts of the Erstwhile catalog since then. I'm also planning on getting some of the classic AMM stuff to get a better understanding of the music's roots. Besides Erstwhile, I've also picked up a couple things from Emusic, and I have a couple of Evan Parker's Electro-Acoustic Ensemble releases with ECM, but these don't really seem to do much for me.

[stonemonkts]

Crawjo - I think there should be more choices to encompass those of us who like some of what we've heard, but not all, and are not ready to vote "yes" or "no" yet. I have listened to 12 or so issues (many of the more popular ones mentioned in the eai thread) and can say I have enjoyed a few, while others I just didn't "get" (yet). I may never absorb them enough to enjoy, but I am not ready to personally write off the genre.

Anyway, I can't vote based on the choices available (not a big deal, but there could be many more "undecideds" out there).

[Steve Reynolds]

huge Evan Parker fan, but the first 2 ECM's leave me cold

love much of the music of the genre I heard, but I havn't heard much of the most recent stuff, but i reckon I would dig much of it, especially the the stuff with Rowe, as I think he is brillaint, innovative genius.

[Jon Abbey]

Reynolds, I was going to give you a free copy of Duos for Doris if you'd made it to the Rowe/Fennesz show in May, my way of helping you get through these rough times. e-mail me your address, maybe I'll send you one anyway...

[Tom Storer]

I voted No, because I didn't like the only example of it I've heard. I don't rule out changing my mind in the future, but my tastes to date are far enough removed from "Weather Sky" to make me doubt I'll ever get around to exploring eai.

I don't have any particular criticism to make of "Weather Sky," because I really have no basis to judge it on. I like the human gesture in music, the corporal gesture. I like the sense that music is being played by human beings with their bodies. The language of "Weather Sky" seemed far removed from that starting point--sort of like a view of the cold reaches of outer space through a spaceship porthole, when I prefer looking at cows in green meadows from the window of a steam-powered locomotive.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

Reynolds, I was going to give you a free copy of Duos for Doris if you'd made it to the Rowe/Fennesz show in May, my way of helping you get through these rough times. e-mail me your address, maybe I'll send you one anyway...

Yeah, Reynolds, go for it. I was surprised to receive a gift of Duos... from Jon, and it helped me through some hard times in my life and in my listening. I thank you publicly, Jon.

PS...I find eai intriguing. Back in the old free improv days, I had a group that played a precursor of eai, back before it was "pointed out" and we always played in great sonic spaces. The audience usually ended up hypnotized, and us too.

[Jon Abbey]

yeah, Weather Sky is a pretty extreme place to start. I'd recommend one of the Vienna recordings, maybe Too Beautiful to Burn, if you ever want to dip another toe in.

[lazarus]

I´m a little uncertain exactly what "EAI" music means but I´m very fond of improvisation-music that contains electro-acoustic sounds.
For example Evan Parker´s Electro-Acoustic Ensemble and the "intuitive music" of Karlheinz Stockhausen´s "Aus Den Sieben Tagen".

The only erstwhile-cd I got is "The Hands Of Caravaggio" and the only AMM-cd I got is AMMusic. I like both a lot but I don´t know if the cd´s are representative of the label or the group.
"THOC" is the only cd on erstwhile that I have found here in Sweden (at Ystad museum of art) and AMMusic is the only AMM that is distributed here so if you don´t buy from abroad (which I have never done) it´s impossible to buy this music in Sweden. At least in my little home-town. Jon, do you know any place here in Sweden that sells your label?

I have had two cd´s with solo-improvisations buy some japanese musicians that I have forgotten the names of (one guitar and one "no-input mixingboard"). I found them both very boring but I guess I like this kind of music more in a group-context.

Well, I like the "idea" of "EAI" so I guess I vote yes.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

Yeah, Reynolds, go for it. I was surprised to receive a gift of Duos... from Jon, and it helped me through some hard times in my life and in my listening. I thank you publicly, Jon.

nice to hear, Dennis, my pleasure! as I told you before, your Silkheart releases, along with some others on that label, were pretty inspirational for me at the time, happy to return the favor.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by lazarus

Jon, do you know any place here in Sweden that sells your label?

no, you can directly order from me if you want, which is cheap and easy, just sign up for paypal.com, e-mail me for more specifics if interested.

otherwise, you have to use Metamkine in France or maybe sound 323 in London, distribution is by far the hardest part of this business...

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Tom Storer

I voted No, because I didn't like the only example of it I've heard. I don't rule out changing my mind in the future, but my tastes to date are far enough removed from "Weather Sky" to make me doubt I'll ever get around to exploring eai.

I don't have any particular criticism to make of "Weather Sky," because I really have no basis to judge it on. I like the human gesture in music, the corporal gesture. I like the sense that music is being played by human beings with their bodies. The language of "Weather Sky" seemed far removed from that starting point--sort of like a view of the cold reaches of outer space through a spaceship porthole, when I prefer looking at cows in green meadows from the window of a steam-powered locomotive.

Wow, that's a great analogy, Tom. A lot of EAI music strikes me that way as well, (and I've avoided Weather Sky so far), but sometimes I like to get both sides: the green pastures and the cold reaches of outer space.

I think I've got...what....seven? Erstwhiles now, and I'd say the best I've heard on the label, for me, is Too Beautiful to Burn, which might be more up your alley if you ever decide to give the music a try. Duos for Doris is probably the more powerful statement, but the quiet intensity of the music is a little frightening to me, so I really need to be in the right frame of mind to listen to it. Actually, I think both Duos for Doris and Too Beautiful to Burn are masterpieces, but my own tastes tend toward the latter rather than the former.

After Too Beautiful to Burn, my other favorites so far are probably A View from a Window and La Voyelle Liquide, though I like everything that I've heard so far, to greater or lesser degrees.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by stonemonkts

Crawjo - I think there should be more choices to encompass those of us who like some of what we've heard, but not all, and are not ready to vote "yes" or "no" yet. I have listened to 12 or so issues (many of the more popular ones mentioned in the eai thread) and can say I have enjoyed a few, while others I just didn't "get" (yet). I may never absorb them enough to enjoy, but I am not ready to personally write off the genre.

Anyway, I can't vote based on the choices available (not a big deal, but there could be many more "undecideds" out there).

Mmmm. Sorry about that, stoner. Should have added a fourth choice. If Mone or Lois see this and could put in an "Undecided" option, I'd be much obliged.

[shrugs]

I like a lot of what I have heard. Especially anything with Keith Rowe. I believe hearing the music in a live setting is something everyone should experience before making up their minds.


A Dimension Of Perfectly Ordinary Reality, baby

[LeMo]

I can't vote either.
I like some but I'm far to like everything I've heard.

But the "eai" is something than you can't just ignore if you like avant-garde and improvisation. Like you can't ignore "contemporary music" for one of this reason or "ethnic music" for the other.

I have always liked AMM at every stage of its many evolutions/transformations, with the actual trio as prefiguration of that genre.

[bluenoter]

I loved the brief sample of Too Beautiful to Burn that I heard at Vince K's listening party. But when I listened to various soundclips at the Erst site, a while back, some of the frequencies (or something) hurt my ears. I don't remember which albums those clips were from.

I buy very few albums, and as a rule, I expect to introduce myself to a lot more jazz artists and albums before I turn to EAI. But Too Beautiful to Burn is on my wishlist, and I'm curious about the much-praised HOC.

In this thread's poll, I'd belong in an "Undecided or haven't heard enough to know" category.

[shrugs]

Originally Posted by LeMo

But the "eai" is something than you can't just ignore if you like avant-garde and improvisation. Like you can't ignore "contemporary music" for one of this reason or "ethnic music" for the other.

Added to that, I can't see how anyone can ignore classical music....

[graypencil]

I too have to abstain from voting because of the omission of the choice: " some yes, some no "

my problem with it is: what sets apart EAI ( and the artists you who semm versed in the genre cite ) from contemporary academic aleatoric experiments using the same tools ?

my answer there is: some yes, some no..

BTW: I realldy DO like Waltos' "Screwdriver" ..what ever you'd call it ..

[Dan G]

Love some, hate some (the same could be said about any genre though), so can't vote.

[Sergio Zamora]

I like it. While I don't agree with Tom, I can understand his comments about the seemingly detached nature of the music. While there are still plenty of acoustic instrumentalists working in this area of music, the sounds coming from a laptop or a no-input mixing board or other sounds where you can't 'feel' the human contact may seem artificial, but to me it's just another way of interacting with the instruments.

What's more, the feeling of unexpectedness I get with this music seems very human to me. I think the difficulty people have with it is the harshness of a subset of the music that falls in this area, but more importantly there's the lack of a narrative structure. There isn't a beginning, end, or middle in the same way there is in other music. It has motion, but it moves in a different way from other music. Things don't happen because logic requires them to, but because the musician makes a choice (or their instrument make a choice for them). It reduces music to sound, silence, and time in a way that more narrative music cannot because of its inevitable inclusion of a structure that exists beyond the individual piece itself. I find this to be true not only for songs-based music, but for more 'traditional' freely improvised music as well. To me the difference between jazz/other free improv and this music is the difference between expressing yourself through a story or a novel and expressing yourself through a painting.

[Nate Dorward]

Same answer I'd give to a question about just about any genre: yes and no.

[Oger]

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

To me the difference between jazz/other free improv and this music is the difference between expressing yourself through a story or a novel and expressing yourself through a painting.

Well, narrative painting exists too :-)

[Jon Abbey]

Sergio, you know I almost always agree with you word for word about this stuff, but I don't agree with this:

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

there's the lack of a narrative structure. There isn't a beginning, end, or middle in the same way there is in other music. It has motion, but it moves in a different way from other music. Things don't happen because logic requires them to, but because the musician makes a choice (or their instrument make a choice for them).

assuming we're talking about the more successful examples, I think there's almost always a narrative and a logic and a linear flow, but it may be unique to that project or those musicians or that scene, and it sometimes takes a few listens to figure out, which to me is a lot of the fun of it.

I know you pretty much agree with this, I think it's maybe a semantic difference somehow...

[Sergio Zamora]

Jon,

Yeah, I didn't want to delve into language I couldn't quite control, so I avoided being more specific. I guess what I meant to say was there isn't a meta-structure. That is, the structure is defined from piece to piece or project to project. This is true in some cases with other free improvisation, but it's much more emphasized in this music.

[Oger]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

... I think there's almost always a narrative and a logic and a linear flow, but it may be unique to that project or those musicians or that scene, and it sometimes takes a few listens to figure out,...

Yes that makes more sense to me.
For instance, it's obvious with the Four gentlement of the guitar (I saw them twice). And they made completely different performances.

Sometimes, I don't feel this narrative element in the same way : Sachiko for instance, but is it eai ?

[Bill Barton]

Improvisation is improvisation.

Period.

Electro or acoustic are moot points.

Electro and acoustic are moot points.

Sound is sound.

Music is music.

[Pedantic Wretch]

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

It reduces music to sound, silence, and time in a way that more narrative music cannot because of its inevitable inclusion of a structure that exists beyond the individual piece itself. I find this to be true not only for songs-based music, but for more 'traditional' freely improvised music as well. To me the difference between jazz/other free improv and this music is the difference between expressing yourself through a story or a novel and expressing yourself through a painting.

Not that I wish to defend any supposed 'old guard', but I think you'd be hard pushed to discern a 'narrative' in, for example, something by Derek Bailey. A style of playing which focuses on rapid, staccato gestures ('pointillist', as it has been labelled, as opposed to 'laminar' - forget who coined that distinction) is often dismissed by its detractors as sounding 'chatty'. However, I think it would be a mistake to equate this with some form of storytelling. I imagine most improvisers would strenuously deny accusations of producing programmatic music. That said, there is often a focus on place and the genius loci (especially in areas of 'EAI', in fact): many of AMM's recordings refer to places in the title, and Neumann & Beins's 'Lidingö' could be cited as a more recent example.

[Tom Storer]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

yeah, Weather Sky is a pretty extreme place to start. I'd recommend one of the Vienna recordings, maybe Too Beautiful to Burn, if you ever want to dip another toe in.

Thanks, Jon, I'll make a note of that. And the Vienna recordings and "Too Beautiful to Burn" are by whom?

Originally Posted by crawjo

Duos for Doris is probably the more powerful statement, but the quiet intensity of the music is a little frightening to me, so I really need to be in the right frame of mind to listen to it.

Quiet intensity is something I go for, generally. I think it's the frame of mind I'll have to learn... how to listen to it. A funny thing happened to me with Indian classical music, which I was always attracted to; one evening at a concert something mysterious happened and I was hearing it very differently, in a way I instinctively knew was right. I can't describe it very well, but suddenly I was into a different way of listening. I had the impression when listening to "Weather Sky" that concentration of a different nature would be required, but, life being what it is, it's very rare that I have an hour of free time, alone, to listen to music and experiment with concentration.

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

the sounds coming from a laptop or a no-input mixing board or other sounds where you can't 'feel' the human contact may seem artificial, but to me it's just another way of interacting with the instruments.

I wouldn't say it seems artificial, just that it seems removed from both dance and song, elements that are central to most of the music I love, even the hoary tradition of "free jazz."

there's the lack of a narrative structure. There isn't a beginning, end, or middle in the same way there is in other music. It has motion, but it moves in a different way from other music. Things don't happen because logic requires them to, but because the musician makes a choice (or their instrument make a choice for them). It reduces music to sound, silence, and time in a way that more narrative music cannot because of its inevitable inclusion of a structure that exists beyond the individual piece itself. I find this to be true not only for songs-based music, but for more 'traditional' freely improvised music as well. To me the difference between jazz/other free improv and this music is the difference between expressing yourself through a story or a novel and expressing yourself through a painting.

Many interesting points there. I suspect that the human mind will impose a beginning, middle and end on anything, simply because they are there chronologically if not in structural necessity or "logic." And I question whether the purported lack of structural constraint isn't shared by "normal" free-improv players. I think Derek Bailey would say that what he and his non-idiomatically improvising mates are doing also depends solely on their unconstrained choices.

The parallel with painting or with literature is also very interesting but probably requires a thread of its own! Olewnick might have insightful things to say about it. It's true that I'm a hundred times more verbal than I am visual, but I don't know if that has anything to do with my musical tastes or not.

[Brian Olewnick]

Not (yet) about painting/music, but the concern for the absence of gesture in much eai is certainly a consideration made by many of the musicians. I'd distinguish, btw, between the a-gestural and the a-corporeal; I don't think the latter is really in play. But someone like Rowe is (and pretty much always has been, since the advent of AMM) concerned with limiting or minimizing the overt gestures made during performance. I'd say it has something to do with the elimination of signifiers of a concept in favor of (as purely as possible) the concept itself, with the idea that, at least over the course of time if not immediately, those signifiers could come to replace the actual intent, as one sees, for example, in any one of millions of pop performances where gestures (say, windmilling a guitar) become replacements of actual musical content. Of course, in a sense, non-gesture is a gesture itself.

I recall a similar issue raising its head early on in Braxton's career when he was accused of being "too cerebral", etc. He said something along the lines of being puzzled that some listeners appeared to need to see the musician sweating and grimacing before they'd acknowledge any sort of creativity occurring.

[LeMo]

For what it worth, some thought on the "eai" music, through the handycap of my limited english.

To my ear, "eai" could only be compare to a "Journey".

And what the music relates is this journey where nothing is predictable and where everything can happen. This journey can be concret (landscape, smells, taste, feelings - cold, hot, vision, scarry vision, thougth, scarry thought) or abstract (going deep down inside yourself for an exploration/ journey).

But "eai" is not the first music to try do that, even if this music goes, at its best, maybe more further and deeper in this direction than anything else before.
Classical music was mostly, from Hayden and Beethoven to Wagner, Malher and the first Schönberg, a concret programmatic music (this part of this symphony is a walk in the forest, this is a storm, etc.) or abstract programmatic music (this symphony or this part of this symphony speaks about death, love, despair, happiness).

The psychedelic era has also produce its share of this kind of music.
I've liked some (Grateful Dead), hate other (Pink Floyd).
This music was intended as an "internal journey" (with the use of some substance to help if necessary).

Some of the european rock has taking this way in the seventies through a mythology who was closed to science-fiction (Magma, Univers Zéro) or in more abstract way (Can) with more diverse sources.

Some of the contemporary or post-contemporary music also (where you find the same concret/ abstract opposition), the minimalist vs the "New York School": Feldman, Brown, Tudor, Wolff, even Cage. The NYS was the first to have focalised their thoughts on things like "pure" sound, silence, time (not has a rythm but as a duration, etc.)

But what make "eai" different from all these musics, it's his improvisationnal factor and the fact that, like in any "improvised" music, the "performance" can't be repeated (but can be catch, of course).

If you can have different versions of "The Viola In My Life"; "Weather Sky", "Duo For Doris" or "La Voyelle Liquide" are not intended to be repeated. It's a creation of a moment.

That is part of the beauty of "eai" at his best.
But, alas, to my ear, that doesn't happen as often as I'll like and not as often as it is discribe by reviewers.

Too many "eai" records are dangerously closed to "New Age" and the so-call "Ambient" music, two genres that I conscientiously hate and avoid.
Too many, also, seems to be an empty shell who must be fulfiel by the listener (the music and the art in general must always have, for me, an inside substance).

Last thought. What also strike me about the "eai", it's that it's a music/genre mostly like by people who doesn't like jazz (and that include also "free jazz").

Most (not ALL) of his admirators (and that include part of the musicians who create it !) comes from the rock field or the "contemporary music" (like Wayne Spencer who genuinely acknowledge than he likes "free improvise music" except the one who has a jazz background when speaking about the production of Emanem).

I don't know what that deeply means. But it surely tell something about this music to.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by LeMo

Too many, also, seems to be an empty shell who must be fulfiel by the listener (the music and the art in general must always have, for me, an inside substance).

LeMo, I don't mean to pick on your English, but did you mean 'fulfill'? I'm just trying to understand what you wrote. Good post, btw.