What does "abstract" mean, musically?

Squaredancecalling Steve · July-2nd-2004, 03:03 AM

I hear this frequently used in eai-talk, but I don't think it's limited to that genre. What does it mean when discussing music?

As in "... but not as abstract as blahblahblah" or "unrelentingly abstract".

al j · July-2nd-2004, 03:16 AM

Sorry, no academic answer from me, Steve.

Side 1 of Schlippenbach's Globe Unity is accessible music. Side 2 is abstract.

Tonight I heard two Italian improv guys play (trombone and sampler). Together (the trombone being sampled in real time and regenerated in a variety of modes simultaneously), I "got" what the musicians were doing. Better yet, I enjoyed it and it was highly musical even if there were no mathematical patterns or familiar motifs. Were the sampler not present, the trombone would've sounded like that overdrawn brand of European farty impressionistic improv that I never had much of a taste for anyway; the type of stuff Paul Rutherford plays at his most irritating. Abstract, no?

JazzAt52ndStreet · July-2nd-2004, 03:21 AM

There have been "rules" set up in every genre of art. In music, you have your keys, your modes, and your time signatures. In poetry, there are certain rhythmic patterns (not claiming that I know anything about poetry), etc.
Art out of those "rules" to me, is what is considered abstract.

Now technically speaking, these "rules" don't exist because art is about self expression and boundless freedom....but the rules are there whether you like it or not.

-52nd

al j · July-2nd-2004, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JazzAt52ndStreet

Art out of those "rules" to me, is what is considered abstract.

On the contrary, many of the things I like in art fall way outside of the generally accepted rules I think you're talking about. My wife considers most of these interests to be abstract. They're "home" to me.

Something tells me Steve is looking for a far more versed definition of "abstract" as it applies to music.

AntManBee · July-2nd-2004, 05:05 AM

Non-programmatic?

Squaredancecalling Steve · July-2nd-2004, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntManBee

Non-programmatic?

Yes, that's the meaning I grew up with, and the definition of "abstract music" I can find in my dictionaries, although Webster prefers the term "absolute music."

But this is clearly not the way it is being used these days.

AntManBee · July-2nd-2004, 05:37 AM

Enter Brian and Jon.

Stuckinagroove · July-2nd-2004, 05:42 AM

dissonance?

Enforcer · July-2nd-2004, 10:00 AM

For me, abstraction is the suggestion of forms without clearly illustrating them. In music, that means hinting at musical forms while avoiding the strict representation of those forms.

Easy.

Oversimplifying because that's what lazy people do,
Larry

graypencil · July-2nd-2004, 01:42 PM

As I seem to recall from art history courses many years ago: ( I'm sure there are others here who can explain better what I'm gonna attempt here )

In painting and sculpture , "abstract " art was the antithesis of "realism" i.e. classical illustrative work ..even though some of it began as a transmutation from realistic forms ( i.e. cubism )

I guess in musical terms " abstract" might refer to music that is the anthesis of common practice western music that had been constructed on a set of melodic and harmonic devices ( i.e. triadic based and singable melodic lines ) ..that gradually ( like cubism ) chipped away at the harmonic and melodic forms until it accepted all sorts of other sonic materials ( i.e. noise/electronica/ non traidic tonal constructions ) as viable ..

another lazy generalization ..time for my nap!

Steve Reynolds · July-2nd-2004, 01:56 PM

I'm not smart enough to define it

to me, AMM defines it

not quite them, but listening to "Duo for Doris" for the first time this moring and it is abstract and totally accessable to me. But even though this brain and these ears are very rested, they are also very trained.

fwiw, in music, rules are a total fucking bore and are killing (have killed) most (all?!?) supposed modern mainstream jazz.

52nd:

by an AMM CD

or PLEASE at least buy someting by the names of the modern jazz improv giants that are talked about round these parts.

you might start answering some of your own questions

MOUTH EATING TREES AND RELATED ACTIVITIES

might be a good start

still.......

Coming Down the Mountain

and 52nd Street - give it some time if you care about this music and never, ever forget....

Get Ready to Receive Yourself

btw: anyone know how the old man is doing?

love to all

ps

thank you Jon very much

and it is after one listen my record of the year for 2004

Newfoundland, baby

Enforcer · July-2nd-2004, 01:57 PM

Steve, you are a beautiful motherf**ker. I'm so happy to see you preaching music here again.

Larry

Jon Abbey · July-2nd-2004, 02:00 PM

I have no idea how to try to define "abstract", sorry, I'm of no help here.

Steve, glad I could help you out. I know you need it even more after last night...

Steve Reynolds · July-2nd-2004, 02:02 PM

I'm over last night

I've decided to look for a teaching job

you think the kids will love me???

Brian Olewnick · July-2nd-2004, 02:11 PM

Reynolds, you could be an awesome teacher! (as long as it's not a driving instructor....)

Sergio Zamora · July-2nd-2004, 02:17 PM

Maybe it might be easier if we start by defining 'concrete' music?

(I predict a Concrete Blonde album cover will be posted here within the next 15 posts)

Enforcer · July-2nd-2004, 02:20 PM

Defining concrete music is hard. It takes a while to solidify a definition for something like that, and often it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Soon enough, cracks start to develop in the argument. The discussion tends to get heavy, and everyone wants to chime in and etch her name in it.

Testing his audience,
Larry

Uli · July-2nd-2004, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

I've decided to look for a teaching job

you think the kids will love me???

I bet Goodie could teach you a trick or two.

JazzAt52ndStreet · July-2nd-2004, 03:05 PM

Steve Reynolds - Did I say I didn't appreciate "abstract music"?
All I'm saying is that there are rules that apply to all arts....rules that define 'concrete' music. Music outside of that is abstract.

-52nd

Enforcer · July-2nd-2004, 03:14 PM

Someone please acknowledge that they "got" post 17, because if you don't, then it's a really stupid post and I don't want anyone to think I would write something so pointless.

In the familiar role of making the joke nobody laughs at,
Larry

claude · July-2nd-2004, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

Someone please acknowledge that they "got" post 17, because if you don't, then it's a really stupid post and I don't want anyone to think I would write something so pointless.

In the familiar role of making the joke nobody laughs at,
Larry

I'm "cracking" up,

Painfully droll as always,

Claude

graypencil · July-2nd-2004, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

Defining concrete music is hard. It takes a while to solidify a definition for something like that, and often it doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Soon enough, cracks start to develop in the argument. The discussion tends to get heavy, and everyone wants to chime in and etch her name in it.

Testing his audience,
Larry

..not to mention that "musique concrete" ( as it was dubbed back in the dadaist period by some Parisian wackos ) also seems to lead musicians to attempting to re-bar their compositions ...

cotributing to the sophomoric humor

BTW: "musique concrete" was originally used to identify sound collages constructed by assembling sounds of non musical devices, i.e.machines, drill presses, eggbeaters, air pumps, static, and eventually primitive electronic sound devices--like the Ondes Martinot not to mention.. the dreaded theremin...

PS: Sure was fun to read a good ol' fashioned sermon by Steve R ..

felt like home again

Sergio Zamora · July-2nd-2004, 05:59 PM

Graypencil,

I should have added a disclaimer in my post stating that I wasn't referring to musique concrete when I asked for a definition of 'concrete music'.

Btw, I still hear the term tossed around, but the less pretentious 'sound collage' seems to be more popular. Not sure if they mean the same thing.

GoodSpeak · July-3rd-2004, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

I'm over last night

Oh...poor baby.

Did your mouth cause you some distress?

Wah.

Wah.

Wah.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

I've decided to look for a teaching job

you think the kids will love me???

Like a dog loves fleas.

Come do it better, bay-bee.

GoodSpeak · July-3rd-2004, 10:19 PM

Personally, I think music in the abstract has, by definition, no absolute form in the mind of the composer and/or the performer.

Jazz is a great example inasmuch as improvisation is the benchmark of it's success.

Where you go from there is completely up to the musician.

It is why I love Jazz.

graypencil · July-4th-2004, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

Graypencil,

I should have added a disclaimer in my post stating that I wasn't referring to musique concrete when I asked for a definition of 'concrete music'.

Btw, I still hear the term tossed around, but the less pretentious 'sound collage' seems to be more popular. Not sure if they mean the same thing.

Sergio:

close enough ..six of one .. etc

other buzz words floating around these days in the film business are "ambient scoring" and "sound design " ..the former utilizing more pitched and rhythmic looped stuff and the latter employing sound effects ( in the manner of the original " music concrete " )

..and ..I'd like to add that I'm somewhat offended that Nagel didn't react to my "re-bar" pun ...

Oger · July-5th-2004, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graypencil

..not to mention that "musique concrete" ( as it was dubbed back in the dadaist period by some Parisian wackos ) also seems to lead musicians to attempting to re-bar their compositions ...

When speaking of "Musique concrète", impossible not to mention its creator : Pierre Schaeffer, just after WW II. His approach was very rationnal. His collaborators were Pierre Henry and Eliane Radigue.

www.musespace.com/writings/essays/musique.html

BTW I've never seen/read something about abstract music. I guess this word comes from painting.