Wot? No Elvis??

[Deke]

5:00pm our time yesterday was a little surreal over here. You could twist your radio dial everywhichway plus loose and all you could hear was 'That's alright mama'. It appears that 16:00 UIT 50 years ago ('Cept they didn't have UIT back then...) was the exact moment when Sam Phillips told Elvis, Scotty, and Bill that the session was a wrap, and was figuring on telling Elvis that he hadn't got 'it', when Elvis, who didn't want to go home just yet, suddenly burst into 'That's alright'.

Without that one moment everything would have been different. Who knows in what way? But I kinda liked how it turned out until somewhere in the 80s, when the computers really kicked in and music lost its way, but by then I'd already got a huge back catalogue of good stuff I could listen to, so why should I care? Kids today want to listen to Space Invader machines? Let 'em!

I wasn't around much yesterday, but when I came on here today I expected to find some kinda celebration. Wassamatter witchoo guys? It shouldn't be down to the Brits to celebrate great moments in American music...

Tell you what. I'll just bet that in the next decade it'll be your side of the pond that makes a really big deal about the coming of the Beatles!

Such is life.

[Pete C]

We had a moment of silence for all the black artists who should have been as rich & famous as Elvis.

[Deke]

How about all the artist of every creed, colour, and religion who wouldn't have any recognition at all if Elvis hadn't kicked everything into gear? He didn't create the system. Like Phillips (Who'd recorded many black acts in his time) said. "It needed a pretty white-boy to get this music out there."

It was thanks to rock'n'roll that I spent the first 10 years of my life not even knowing that colour prejudice existed. Anyone who sang rock'n'roll was fine by me and the rest of the kids in the village.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Originally Posted by Deke

...
It was thanks to rock'n'roll that I spent the first 10 years of my life not even knowing that colour prejudice existed. Anyone who sang rock'n'roll was fine by me and the rest of the kids in the village.

So! It was you that bought all those Troggs records. You have a lot to answer for!

P.S. Reg or Elvis ?

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by patricia

That distinction belongs rightfully to the great Johnnie Ray, who, with his performances at the Flame in Detroit in 1951 led the way for white artists, singing in a traditionally black style. Elvis was a huge fan of Ray, and lifted his own style, almost whole cloth, from Johnnie Ray.
Unfortunately, Johnnie Ray became more mainstream as he got older, but he was the beginning.

Nice work! If you keep this up, I might be able to take a day off from my duties as the Detroit Minister Of Information.

Impressed,
Larry

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

Nice work! If you keep this up, I might be able to take a day off from my duties as the Detroit Minister Of Information.

Impressed,
Larry

Thank you. It's a common misconception. I was a HUGE Elvis Presley fan, but Ray was the trailblazer.

Who said anything about Elvis being the first?

Or was Patricia just looking for a way to flaunt some useless knowledge?

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Who said anything about Elvis being the first?

Or was Patricia just looking for a way to flaunt some useless knowledge?

Yes. That was it. I search endlessly for useless information, in order to bore you Scott. My posting that information was a direct attempt to annoy you.
Re-read Deke's post.
I "flaunt", therefore I am.

LATER EDIT:
<<<< Now that I think about it, who cares about my random thoughts and useless information?? The post is gone. Carry on...........>>>>>>

[Dr Dave]

Poor Elvis. All he wanted to do was sing, take drugs, and have sex. (He did, after all, single-handedly invent "Sex, Drugs, And Rock'n'Roll.") Instead he wound up a Cultural Icon, with all the crap that entails (like putting the sins of racism in the music business at his feet).

I had a peanut butter, bacon, and banana sandwich in his honor. Urp!

[patricia]

Only one?? Was it fried in bacon grease?? Are you wearing your white jumpsuit, with the oversized collar, as the rest of us are??

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by patricia

Only one?? Was it fried in bacon grease?? Are you wearing your white jumpsuit, with the oversized collar, as the rest of us are??

Like Elvis, I just want to sing, take drugs, and have sex. Unlike Elvis, I am--at least to date--unwilling to become what my wife calls a Hefty Sack in the bargain. Not that I wasn't seriously tempted to have another one, mind you. They're awfully good in a sick, babyfood kinda way.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

Like Elvis, I just want to sing, take drugs, and have sex. Unlike Elvis, I am--at least to date--unwilling to become what my wife calls a Hefty Sack in the bargain. Not that I wasn't seriously tempted to have another one, mind you. They're awfully good in a sick, babyfood kinda way.

I think that was the appeal. Now that I think about it, a big bowl of Cream Of Wheat, kinda salty is my preferred comfort food. Peanut-butter and banana, without the bacon, on two slices of seven-grain bread, cooked in one of those sandwich grills, is my lunch, when I have a couple of ripe bananas around. The peanut-butter [crunchy] is, of course, a staple.

Is this the line from Deke's thread you're referring to?:

"Without that one moment everything would have been different."

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by patricia

Now that I think about it, a big bowl of Cream Of Wheat, kinda salty is my preferred comfort food.

You need the Indian version, Oopma. Mrs. Tanager can send you some.

[Gentle Giant]

Elvis? Roy Brown? Big Joe Turner?
Tomorrow some will celebrate the recording of Elvis's first single as the birth of rock 'n' roll. But 50 years later, the debate over who started it all rages on
By Steve Morse, Globe Staff | July 4, 2004

The marketing arm of the rock 'n' roll business is trying to rewrite history.

BMG Records, which distributes the Elvis Presley catalog, has decreed July 5, 1954, as rock's birth date -- making tomorrow the 50th anniversary of rock 'n' roll. What's so special about that spot on the calendar? Elvis recorded his first single, "That's All Right," on that day in Memphis.

Much of the media is buying into the anniversary hype. Rolling Stone just released a special issue devoted to the musical milestone. So did England's respected Q Magazine. Even TV Guide includes a CD of "That's All Right" in its latest issue.

But something's not all right about this.

The splash is convenient for BMG, which is using the anniversary to push more Elvis product -- namely, a CD of Elvis during his early Sun Records period ("Elvis at Sun"), plus two Elvis DVDs and a compilation disc, "Memphis Celebrates 50 Years of Rock 'n' Roll." The city itself is capitalizing on the date by staging a concert tomorrow by Memphis singers Justin Timberlake and Isaac Hayes. Sun Studio will broadcast the recording session of "That's All Right" at 11 a.m. Central time tomorrow, and radio stations around the world will play it simultaneously.

But the marketing blitz, by BMG as well as other companies, reopens a nagging debate: Just when did rock really begin? It's an issue that has long been tinged with racism, specifically the notion that it took a white man to make it rock 'n' roll, whereas before it was only R&B and what was then described as "race music."

"I think Elvis was given a lot of credit for introducing rock to the masses because he was white and gorgeous," says singer Sheryl Crow. "Not to take anything away from him, but I think you could easily trace the true beginning of rock back to the late '40s and early '50s with artists like Big Joe Turner, who did `Shake, Rattle & Roll,' which was undoubtedly a rock song, as well as Ike Turner with `Rocket 88.' "

Crow is not the only artist to note that not enough credit is given to black music pioneers such as Roy Brown, Fats Domino, Ike Turner, Little Richard, Ruth Brown, Big Joe Turner, Bo Diddley, and Arthur "Big Boy" Crudup, who wrote and first recorded "That's All Right" way back in 1946.

"A lot of people say `Rocket 88' " marks the birth of rock 'n' roll, Aerosmith's Joe Perry says of the 1951 release. "But it's hard to sit down and pronounce any day as the given day."

Still, the July 5, 1954, anniversary is being pushed regardless of any contrary beliefs.

"It's when rock started from a commercial standpoint," says Joe DiMuro, executive vice president of BMG's Strategic Marketing Group. "The song `That's All Right' brought true fanaticism to the masses," he adds. "You could argue that Bill Haley & the Comets also popularized rock before Elvis, but they never had the magnitude of Elvis. Elvis put rock on a pedestal."

The BMG executive is not alone in this perspective. Some music critics, such as Robert Hilburn of the Los Angeles Times, agree with the significance of the "That's All Right" date. "You go from that record to John Lennon to Bruce Springsteen to U2 to Tom Petty to White Stripes," says Hilburn. "You don't get there from `Shake, Rattle & Roll' . . . or `Rocket 88.' " Adds rock historian Arthur Levy, a voting member of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame: "Let's face it, rock 'n' roll would never have emerged . . . unless white hillbilly cats had started playing it."

That's a bold comment, and it slams the door on too much music that preceded Elvis. Rock 'n' roll is widely believed to be music of freedom, of partying, and of dancing to a sound that is heavy on the second and fourth beats of a 4/4 tempo. And such backbeat music was definitely going on long before Elvis.

"The term rock 'n' roll was already out there -- just like the term `sock it to me,' it was out there," says Boston's Peter Wolf, the ex-J. Geils Band singer, who is a serious student of music history. "It was a colloquial term and it evolved from be-bop lingo." Terry Stewart, CEO of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, says, "Rock doesn't rise up from some primordial mud with one record. If it did, then why not with `Good Rockin' Tonight' by Roy Brown [1947], or `Rock This Joint' by Bill Haley [1952], or `Crazy Man Crazy' by Haley [1953]?" Even pop-music historian and acclaimed Elvis biographer Peter Guralnick admits, "Elvis was part of a revolution that could have happened without him."

There is no denying that Elvis had talent (much more than onetime biographer Albert Goldman gave him credit for), but he also helped launch, however unwittingly, the ugly side of a trend. "Everybody ripped off black acts back then," says guitarist Eddie Van Halen.

Music pioneer Eddy "Chief" Clearwater points to Brown's "Good Rockin' Tonight" in 1947 as the possible beginning of rock 'n' roll (Wynonie Harris had a hit with it, Elvis also recorded it, and Bruce Springsteen later played it in concert). He further cites LaVern Baker and Louis Jordan, who did "Caldonia."

"America at the time wasn't ready for a black hero," says Clearwater, a Chicago native who headlines Johnny D's July 30. "No matter how good a black [artist] was, the time wasn't right for him to be accepted."

But rock was picking up steam, Guralnick says, through Lloyd Price's "Lawdy Miss Clawdy" in 1952 and releases by Fats Domino and Little Richard.

"Also, at the same time that Elvis was recording `That's All Right,' Ray Charles was working on `I Got a Woman,' which was as revolutionary as `That's All Right,' " Guralnick says. "But while some of those artists never got their full due, they did get more genuine attention because of Elvis."

That said, there's every reason to believe that Elvis, were he still around, might be skeptical of this 50th anniversary hype. He saw himself as "part of a continuum," Guralnick says, and always had a respect for the cultural diversity that preceded him. Long after he made it big, Elvis enlisted black artists such as the Sweet Inspirations for his Las Vegas show.

Frankly, it's encouraging to see BMG's marketing strategy being questioned. It suggests that people still care about the music and aren't going to accept being passive consumers.

"Many of the roots run deeper and are older than [BMG's] unfortunate marketing strategy implies," says Ruben Guevara, who just finished teaching a course at UCLA titled "Development of Rock: Slave Songs to Eminem." He argues persuasively that rock really had its start in Africa's ancient griot/poetry tradition and in African-American slave, work, and prison songs. One might ask dozens of people to pinpoint rock's inception and get different answers from each. The bottom line is that it's not going to stop the marketing machine. All the 50-year-anniversary talk may be "just another promotion," according to Newbury Comics co-owner Mike Dreese, but it's also an opportunity for the Newbury chain to jump in and offer "50 essential rock albums" from the likes of AC/DC, Pearl Jam, and Metallica at discount prices.

Business is business. But it's not too late to remind audiences that rock was about artistic and cultural expression long before it became a commodity.

© Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

[moneyp]

I wish I could have laid money on "Patricia will chime in with something about Johnny Ray on this thread."

Word association, Pat: SCHINDLER'S LIST.

Come on, go ahead. You know you want to.

[Deke]

Maybe it's worth pointing out here that I was never a huge Elvis fan. I'm not pushing his case out of blind obsession, it's just an undeniable truth. Why the idea that Elvis changed the world should upset people to such a degree I don't know, but no one on here has said anything that my brother hasn't said already (And he does it better than anyone, trust me. Without him I wouldn't know how to prop my eyelids open with matchsticks).

There are a million people out there who can claim to be the father, or mother, of rock'n'roll. The fact is, no one invented it. My brother inadvertently proved that when he produced two early recordings, one by Hank Williams, and the other by Howlin' Wolf, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that they were both singing rock'n'roll before Elvis.

You can try until you're blue in the face, you are never going to convince me that those two influenced each other. Elvis' first single had a blues number on one side, and a country song on the other, and the way he sang them you'd never know they came from completely different sides of the track. No one 'invented' rock'n'roll. Presley kick stated it. He didn't do it to piss anyone off. He had no idea it was going to bring him fame and fortune, and ultimately a degrading death. He just did what he did. The right man, in the right place, at the right time.

Incidentally, I remember Johnny Ray, I used to try and sing like him (Difficult when your voice hasn't broken), but he wasn't Presley, and he wasn't rock'n'roll. It's hard to define what was and wasn't rock'n'roll, but we just kinda instinctively knew what qualified and what didn't. Bottom line, without Elvis there would probably have been no Lonnie Donegan, without Lonnie Donegan I would probably never have picked up a guitar, more to the point, maybe the Quarrymen Skiffle Group would never have formed, then maybe there'd have been no 'British invasion', so maybe there'd have been no psychedelia, without which there may have been no prog-rock, without which a whole load of rock musicians may not have made the transition to jazz, and I wouldn't be sitting here trying to convince you all that that first Elvis single was one of the transitional moments, not just in music, but in influencing the whole attitudes of the future adults of the world.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Is this the line from Deke's thread you're referring to?:

"Without that one moment everything would have been different."

NO that wasn't the line. "It needed a pretty white boy to get it out there".
was the line.


Johnnie Ray, a "pretty white boy" had brought what was recognized as "race" music to a wider audience, a full four years before Elvis, as I mentioned, in 1951. His first recordings were for OKeh records and his physical, "scandalous" for the time, performing style was what Elvis copied.

Deke, have you seen film of Johnnie Ray at the beginning of his career??