Haunted Weather by David Toop

Well, I've now read his last 3 books, and they are alike in this way:
flashes of brilliance, some wonderful vignettes and anecdotes, but
basically an incoherent mess. if he thinks improvisation or stream-of-consciousneass is an effective way to write a non-fiction book
that attempts to present an argument, he's wrong, wrong, wrong, and he should stop writing books. they don't work. they're like sand running through your fingers.

[crawjo]

I like sand running through my fingers.

[Jon Abbey]

Toop's most incoherent work is still far more compelling and insightful than anything I've ever read of yours, Adam.

Haunted Weather is more superficial than I'd like, but well worth reading. he asks the questions that need to be asked, I just wish he spent more time trying to answer those questions.

[Jon Abbey]

I have no interest in meeting you in person, although I wouldn't be surprised if you ignore that and stalk me, it would fit your personality well.

and I was also talking about Toop's book, which I've read, and I've read quite a bit of his stuff. yes, he has his flaws, but there are very few people out there doing a better job. as you occasionally attempt to be a "critic" yourself and tend to come up woefully short, I found it amusing that you told him to stop writing books, and merely gave my opinion on the matter. if you don't want other people's opinions, stay away from music discussion boards.

i don't write music books or earn a living doing so.
Toop is well-suited to take criticism for writing books
that, as I said, are often fascinating, but fail to sustain
any coherent line of argument, and are more like a collection
of interesting meditations and questions that leave little or nothing
behind.

i knew you wouldn't want to meet, Jonny, because only
on-line are you willing to confront and attack. but you know,
if you're going to throw around fighting words, you should have
the guts to either a) repeat them in person b) apologize

but you're not capable of either.
c'mon, jon, i'll buy you a beer and we'll laugh it off, no?

[Jon Abbey]

Adam, you instigate with me at least as much as I do with you. I wouldn't have posted what I did if you didn't say "he should stop writing books". that was going too far, in my opinion, and I felt the need to rebut. I basically agree with the first paragraph in your last post, which was pretty much what I said about the book in my first post here, but that doesn't mean he should stop trying.

and, no, I really don't see the point of meeting you in person. have a nice time in NYC.

jon, i rarely post here, and though i do like to read some of the threads (even ones you post on) i see no point jumping in to attack you or anyone else.
after the last dust-up, i have stayed away, and even made peace with (and apologized to) others who i've had some harsh exchanges with.

whenever i read a thread that you post on, inevitably you write something that is derogatory, insulting, and confrontational. you thrive on this, and very often go far beyond differences of opinion into personal attacks.
you need to take responsibilty for that kind of chicken-shit behavior.

[Jon Abbey]

yes, Adam, you've made your opinions about me very clear, time and time again. thanks for sharing once more, though.

again, I'm not talking about you personally (I have a couple of times in the past when you've pushed me into it, not that I really know much about you, but certainly no more than you have), I'm talking about your "professional" work, just as you do my output with Erstwhile. you judge Toop's work as a critic, I judge yours. I think you're very passionate about music, and I think you're a smart guy. from my perspective, your taste in music is dreadful (not just in improv), and you have little of insight to add, either pro or con. you think Toop should stop writing books, I think you should stop writing music criticism. you may very well be a great person in real life, I have no idea, little interest in knowing, and that's not what we're talking about here.

"i have stayed away, and even made peace with (and apologized to) others who i've had some harsh exchanges with. "

I'm sure you have, I've played this over-the-top hostility/apology game with you before. I'm not interested in doing it again, online or in person.

[Jon Abbey]

also, I don't go out of my way to fight with you, Adam. you and I just rub each other the wrong way. that's cool, not everyone in this world has to get along.

i wish i could return the compliment jon, and say your taste in music
is also dreadful. only thing is: i don't find much of what you sell or shill to
be music. and how you discuss and defend it (as I've written) is so laughbale and vague as to come very close to exposing the sad hoax of it all.

[Jon Abbey]

cool, so we both know where we stand, yet again. what's funny is we basically agree on the Toop book.

wow, yes (then maybe you didn't need to include in your post a personal attack on me? )

and to be fair: rather than saying that Toop should stop writing books, I should have said I will stop reading his books.
i wish he could write a cogent and well thought out book, but so far, he's not delivered.

[sonic1]

Achilles, threatening physical harm is going way too fucking far. If I was in charge of this site you would be booted for such bullshit. I can't believe anyone on this site would even threaten such a thing. That is the equivalent of jr. high school mentality-what are you trying to say, that if his opinion was said to you in person you would kick his ass?

You are an ass achilles. A neanderthal one at that.

Jared

[Joe Milazzo]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

...he asks the questions that need to be asked...

Jon -- I'd be very interested to know which questions those are.

Thanks,

Joe

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Joe Milazzo

Jon -- I'd be very interested to know which questions those are.

the first paragraph on the back cover of the book reads as follows:

"Is it possible to grow electronic sounds, as if they were plants in a garden? Can the resonance of an empty room be played like a musical instrument? Why are childhood memories of sound and silence so important to our emotional development? Is it valid to classify audio recordings of wind or electrical hum as musical compositions? Can computers replace more conventional instruments like the piano or the electric guitar? How can improvisation coexist with computer software? Why have the sounds of our environment become so important to sound artists and why is atmosphere so important in music?"

[saltwatersnow]

Originally Posted by achilles

i wish i could return the compliment jon, and say your taste in music
is also dreadful. only thing is: i don't find much of what you sell or shill to
be music. and how you discuss and defend it (as I've written) is so laughbale and vague as to come very close to exposing the sad hoax of it all.

claiming a new thing as not being music has really made all the writers in the past who have done likewise look real good to history.

[moneyp]

You've gotta be kidding me. Achilles, you may not realise this, but threatening violence, whether it's on the phone, via e-mail or on a public message board is a prosecutable offense. Not only that, but you implicate JC when you decide to do it here.

Since you've apparently made your peace with Jon here, I'm not going to do anything more than remove the post, although I'm keeping it archived. But rest assured that I won't hesitate to forward it to the proper authorities if I feel it's justified.

alas, i've been ex-communicated.
what a crock.

[sonic1]

What a crock???

Man it takes a lot to offend me. You can believe or say almost anything. Physical threats is where I draw the line bro. The people on the JC are a lot nicer than I am in this case however. I would've canned you just on that one comment.

you'd have to know the history and look up the things written
to me and about me by him.

inviting someone to say in person the insulting
things they're willing to write on-line, is not to my mind (or purpose)
a threat. but to each his own.

[Joe Milazzo]

Thanks Jon.

"Can the resonance of an empty room be played like a musical instrument?"

That's actually phrased quite beautifully.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Joe Milazzo

"Can the resonance of an empty room be played like a musical instrument?"

Yeah, this is a question that absolutely *needs* to be asked. Without an anwer, can we move forward?

[Joe Milazzo]

Originally Posted by Uli

Yeah, this is a question that absolutely *needs* to be asked. Without an anwer, can we move forward?

Absolutely not. But sidling is still an option.

To further complicate matters, there is a related question:

"Can the resonance of an empty head be plied as if it were a musical implement?"

I believe John Tesh and the former members of Creed are working on this one as we speak.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Joe Milazzo

I believe John Tesh and the former members of Creed are working on this one as we speak.

I doubt they're *heading* in the right direction.