The Least We Can Do Is Wave To Each Other: The Progressive Rock Thread

[Alastair]

Readers of the eai:2.0 thread, look away now...

Inspired (and a little shamed) by Other Steve's comments on WAYLT VII, I've just listened to Nektar's "Recycled" for the first time in over ten years, and I must say I enjoyed it. The first side is far superior to the second, and who'd have predicted that choir, but it's a pretty solid record. Especially for 1977.

So the time has come to admit: I was a teenage progressive (never prog, that's a late nineties coining) rock fan, and I've never quite shaken it off. Careful readers will be aware of my liking for Gentle Giant (the band, although Jason does seem to be a most agreeable fellow), but they'll always be just behind the two stars in my own Progressive firmament: Van Der Graaf Generator and King Crimson (60s/70s vintage). I was obsessive about VdGG and Peter Hammill during my University years, and I still think they stand up. Gabriel-era Genesis and Rush were my entry-points into this whole thing as a sixth-former and I still have time for them when I'm in the right mood - in fact, I'm going to see Rush play this September, back permitting. There's times when only "By-Tor and the Snow Dog" will do.

I'm also rather partial to PFM, Hatfield and the North and especially National Health, who's second album must stand as one of the landmarks of the seventies. In hindsight people make excuses for bands like Magma and Henry Cow saying that they weren't really Progressive Rock bands, but let's be honest - they were. And they were great.

I never really got on with Yes, Caravan, Camel, Barclay James Harvest and a lot of the other "classic" Progressive bands. I don't like the eighties revival bands like Pallas, and couldn't see what all the fuss was about The Mars Volta (tedious metal, as far as I could hear), but let's not write off a whole genre because some of it is rubbish.

My PFM/Peter Hammill live in concert reminiscences to follow...

[Tanager]

Do the Dixie Dregs count?

[john williams]

This is a bit deja vouish Alastair as I was a Pre-"Trick of the Tail" Genesis fan as a teen. I'm with you with regards to KC, except I only really liked Red and Starless and Bible Black from the earlier period and much prefer their more recent incarnations. For example, Discipline era, the ProjeKcts Box (1999) = much better improv as opposed to the bombastic earlier stuff. However, KC did release a wonderful box of live material from about 1974 called The Great Deceiver well worth the bucks. I almost loath all KC with vocals (Wetton couldn't sing for shit) except the song Starless and some of the Belew tracks of later years. That's why the ProjeKcts box is worth having as it's totally instrumental and all improv.

I despise In the Court of the Crimson King - I probably deserve to be shot for saying this blasphemous comment but I just can't stand it.

[Enforcer]

I'm a huge, gigantic, over the top Rush fan. I saw them just this past June, and they sounded great. The Rush In Rio DVD is really nice, for those Rush fans here (I hear crickets) who haven't seen it. One DVD is concert footage, the other is a documentary of the tour. It also includes some multiple camera angle shots of certain tunes, and you can choose which perspective you want (like if you want to watch Peart only, etc.).

Larry

[Dr Dave]

Prog rock has nothing whatever to do with jazz. Just as ground cinnamon has nothing to do with cinnamon sticks.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by JBW

I despise In the Court of the Crimson King - I probably deserve to be shot for saying this blasphemous comment but I just can't stand it.

I may have mentioned this before here, but when it first appeared, I thought ITCOTCK (hee-hee) was the greatest thing I'd ever heard (hey, I was 14). I followed the band through Red, at which point I wandered into other pastures. I'd long since (around 1975) traded in most all my rock vinyl but about 7-8 years ago, on a whim, I picked up the first KC album on disc to see how it had held up. For me, it's about half and half. I still think 21st Century Schizoid Man rocks, still find Moonchild (with echoes of the Music Improvisation Company) quite attractive and, most surprisingly, find "I Talk to the Wind" to be a real pretty song. The title cut and 'Epitaph', however, are all but unlistenable. I never pulled the trigger on repurchasing the second disc.

[Dr Dave]

Hey Robert Fripp is totally cool. But jazz? Please!

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

Hey Robert Fripp is totally cool. But jazz? Please!

Who mentioned jazz? Unless I missed something. Crimson, during the period captured on Earthbound, at least, seemed to make a semi-conscious move toward jazzy improv. Not very effectively in my opinion and of all of them, Fripp the least impressive in that milieu. otoh, he was the producer for the quirkily fine "Septober Energy" by Keith Tippett and Centipede which is more than halfway over on the jazz scale.

[Jazzzoline]

in the 70's... we had the best progrssive rock ever. French too: Harmonium.

[jazzfiend]

And let us not forget Happy the Man and Help Yourself.

[SinginSumo]

Just a few from a misspent (and recalcitrant) youth...


Frank Zappa - Hot Rats

Nazz - Nazz II

Streetnoise - Julie Driscoll/Brian Auger & the Trinity (newly available?)

Blood Sweat & Tears - Child Is Father To The Man

Blood Sweat & Tears - Blood Sweat & Tears II

Cold Blood featuring Lydia Pense

Sly and the Family Stone - Stand

Jethro Tull - Thick As A Brick

Electric Flag - A Long Time Comin'

Chicago Transit Authority - self-titled

Santana - self-titled

The Flock

James Brown - Soul Pride (The Instrumentals 1960-69)

James Brown - Soul On Top

[Jazzzoline]

Nobody mentionned Pink Floyd?

Supertramp?

[Chazro]

Wazzup All!

I don't know anything about the Progressive Rock bands mentioned in the thread but found the comments about Rock vs. Jazz spiked my interest. I listen to a form of music that, for lack of anything else, I call Rock/Jazz, as supposed to Jazz/Rock. It's instrumental music with lots of improvisation involved. Some of the best Jazz records I've ever heard are basically advanced blues jams where, I guess, the musician raises the bar to the point where it becomes true Jazz. I'm wondering at what point does instrumental improvised music cross the line and become Jazz?

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by Chazro

Wazzup All!

I don't know anything about the Progressive Rock bands mentioned in the thread but found the comments about Rock vs. Jazz spiked my interest. I listen to a form of music that, for lack of anything else, I call Rock/Jazz, as supposed to Jazz/Rock. It's instrumental music with lots of improvisation involved. Some of the best Jazz records I've ever heard are basically advanced blues jams where, I guess, the musician raises the bar to the point where it becomes true Jazz. I'm wondering at what point does instrumental improvised music cross the line and become Jazz?

Ah, yes. The Great Question. The answer is "Wherever you say it does."

[Tanager]

How the hell did Sly and the Family Stone get mentioned in a prog rock thread? James Brown? Santana?

I think that the admirers around here of Belew-era KC are pretty numerous. I'm certainly among them.

[Pete C]

I saw the current King Crimson at last year's North Sea festival. I thought they were excellent, and the personal & musical differences of Fripp & Belew were especially compelling.

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

I'm a huge, gigantic, over the top Rush fan. I saw them just this past June, and they sounded great. The Rush In Rio DVD is really nice, for those Rush fans here (I hear crickets) who haven't seen it. One DVD is concert footage, the other is a documentary of the tour. It also includes some multiple camera angle shots of certain tunes, and you can choose which perspective you want (like if you want to watch Peart only, etc.).

Larry

Woah! That multiple camera angle sounds sweet!! I love watching Peart do his thing. Does he still have that circular kit?

I can't believe those guys are still together. The last album I got from them was Roll The Bones(which I always thought was quite underrated).

Saw them on that same tour. Top shelf stuff!! Pearts solo was the highlight of the show, naturally.

My Rush collection may not be up to your standards, Larry, but I'm here for you brother.



Rising above the cricket din as only I can,

Mo Noyz

[Enforcer]

Scott,

The thing that blew me away the past two tours (the two since the band came back after Peart's personal tragedies put the band on the shelf for a few years) has been the sound quality. I've seen the band live over a span of more than 20 years, and they've never come close to sounding this good. The clarity and mix are at an entirely different level of quality than any of the tours from the 90s or earlier. Also, Alex Lifeson is playing better than I've ever heard him live. There's a bluesy quality to his playing that really adds something to the shows.

Don't miss the show if it comes your way, and pick up the DVD!

Larry

P.S. Neil's kit is still the rotating, circular kind. But the solo has really evolved. The swing influenced section (with triggers that set off horn sounds) and the accompanying video montage is really pretty cool.

Sound quality, eh?

Thats interesting, because when I saw them on the Roll The Bones tour, they played in the St. Pete Suncoast Dome(now known as Tropicana Field). Acoustically, it is the most ungodly piece of shit ever invented. A lopsided dome, with curtains(yes, curtains)cutting off a third of the facility, and they sounded just grand in there. I have seen four concerts there, and other than Steely Dan, their sound guys are the only ones who had that place mastered. If you say they're even better, then I've GOT to hear that!!

Glad to hear about Lifeson, I always considered him the weak link. Geddy is the fucking master, and Peart, well, he's just playing on a whole other level altogether. And considering that he writes most of their tunes, well...........(did you read his book?)

I think I will pick up the DVD. I haven't really listened to them much in the last couple of years, but I still love their music. Is there a new studio album?

Yeah, Peart had that circular/rotating drum kit when I saw them. Too cool, the front part is a regular kit while the rear is all electronic pads and cymbals. It was neat to watch him switch back and forth between the two. Especially during his solo. Their previous video, A Show Of Hands, served his solo well.

Thanks for the good word, I'll definitely check it out!

[lazarus]

I was listening a lot to progressive rock in my youth. This was in the first half of seventies (the golden era of progressive rock) and have really never stopped listening to my faves in this genre. Well except for some of my fundamentalist years in mid seventies when I was only listening to jazz and classical music.

My big favorites have always been King Crimson. Other favorites are Van Der Graaf Generator, Magma, Henry Cow/Art Bears, Gentle Giant, early Soft Machine, Robert Wyatt/Matching Mole and Gong.

Like JBW I have always find it hard to like the vocals in King Crimson. I´m not a fan of either Lake´s, Wetton´s or Belew´s voices.
"ThrakAttack" and the "ProjeKCts" box are great instrumental and improvised recordings with KC from the 90´s. Among the best they ever released!

I was buying the remastered cd´s of Yes albums "Fragile" and "Close To The Edge" and was pleasently surprised by how good I thought it sounded. Chris Squire was a fantastic bassplayer! They were among my favorites but, until now, I totally stopped to listening to them 30 years ago. Just like ELP and Genesis.

I must confess that I have never heard Rush. Are they really considered to play progressive rock? I have always thought they were playing some kind of hard-rock influenced mainstream pop.

[lazarus]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Who mentioned jazz? Unless I missed something. Crimson, during the period captured on Earthbound, at least, seemed to make a semi-conscious move toward jazzy improv. Not very effectively in my opinion and of all of them, Fripp the least impressive in that milieu. otoh, he was the producer for the quirkily fine "Septober Energy" by Keith Tippett and Centipede which is more than halfway over on the jazz scale.

There was a 2-cd live disc released a couple of years ago with the "Eartbound" line-up titled "Ladies Of The Road". Some of the playing on these recordings sounds very jazz-influenced but defenitively not Fripp. He´s the most "white" guitarplayer I can think of. Absolutely no blues in his playing!

[lazarus]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I saw the current King Crimson at last year's North Sea festival. I thought they were excellent, and the personal & musical differences of Fripp & Belew were especially compelling.

I saw this band too last june in Stockholm.
It was the first time ever that Fripp was playing in Sweden so for me it was like christmas.
I´m not a very big fan of their latest cd´s but the concert was very good and like Pete indicates Fripp and Belew complement each others very fine as guitarplayers and as onstage-personalities.
I was surprised by how shy and introvert Fripp seemed as a person. He was visually in the background and was not saying a word, not even a "thank you", during the whole concert.
Fripp is the musical leader but Belew was the frontman on stage.

[Jesse]

In the 70's, while smitten by Gentle Giant & Premita Forneria Marconi, I stumbled on to a band called Gryphon, who had a guy who soloed on the krumhorn. Am I recalling a hallucination, or was there a band called Gryphon who featured a guy who soloed on the krumhorn?
It is my further hallucination that they toured once with Yes and that their first album actually included some renaissance-flavored noodlings, but they became more electronic and rock-oriented, probably capitulating to the Yes/ELP set.
I swear I haven't thought of them until this thread was launched.
I had a friend who had some, uhm, mystical experiences with Van Der Graff.I was a huge Soft Machine (the first 2) guy.

[john williams]

Originally Posted by lazarus

I saw this band too last june in Stockholm.
It was the first time ever that Fripp was playing in Sweden so for me it was like christmas.
I´m not a very big fan of their latest cd´s but the concert was very good and like Pete indicates Fripp and Belew complement each others very fine as guitarplayers and as onstage-personalities.
I was surprised by how shy and introvert Fripp seemed as a person. He was visually in the background and was not saying a word, not even a "thank you", during the whole concert.
Fripp is the musical leader but Belew was the frontman on stage.

Re Fripp: I saw a video of a KC concert in Japan awhile ago and Fripp was sitting at the back in the shadows and was extremely reluctant to be in the limelight. Belew, however was definitely the frontman and if I didn't know any better I would have thought it was his band.

Here's a link for a book on Fripp by Eric Tamm, the guy who wrote the rather good Eno book.



Fripp Book From Chapter 1.

The music press has had a great time with Fripp. He has been called "the world's most rational rock star," "the Mr. Spock of rock," "the owlish one," a "persnickety plectrist" and a "plectral purist." He has been characterized as a "nouveau conceptualist," a "tin woodsman with a microtonal heart," and as "a riddle wrapped in an enigma wrapped in a guitarist."

Progressive Ears for Progressophiles

[AntManBee]

Originally Posted by lazarus

I saw this band too last june in Stockholm.
It was the first time ever that Fripp was playing in Sweden so for me it was like christmas.

Aaarggghhhh! How I wish I was there! I was offered a ticket, the car trip from Gothenburg to Stockholm and everything but I couldn't get a day off from work. I will regret this always, eternally, forever.

[AntManBee]

Originally Posted by Jesse

I stumbled on to a band called Gryphon, who had a guy who soloed on the krumhorn. Am I recalling a hallucination, or was there a band called Gryphon who featured a guy who soloed on the krumhorn?

There was indeed a band called Gryphon, centered around Richard Harvey who also was a highly regarded recorder player. They made a handful of albums of which the very first, self-titled one was the best IMO. The follow up "Midnight Mushrumps" had its moments too, but it was all downhill from there. They blended Renaissance music with folk and the aesthetics of the progressive.

However, this doesn't mean you didn't have hallucinations in the 70's!

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by JBW

Re Fripp: I saw a video of a KC concert in Japan awhile ago and Fripp was sitting at the back in the shadows and was extremely reluctant to be in the limelight. Belew, however was definitely the frontman and if I didn't know any better I would have thought it was his band.

Yes, same in The Hague. Belew front & center, rock-star energetic, Fripp on the side, sitting on a stool (I think), moving little, no lights on him. I was wondering if that was always Fripp's style, never having seen him before.

[Brian Olewnick]

Again, I may have told this here before, but...Back in 1977, word spread that Fripp was doing a private, solo Frippertronics show at the orginal Kitchen in Soho. Several hundred people showed up instead of the 10-15 he was expecting. Before playing, Fripp, seated on a stool (I believe he's always played guitar seated) laid out the ground-rules for the evening, very politely. It went something like, "This was intended to be a private event but I'm happy you're all here. But given its original premise, I reserve several rights. I reserve the right to play for as long or as short as I please. I reserve the right to be boring." He also asked that no one take photos or tape the event giving his intriguing rationale that such activity fosters a "vampiric" relationship between musician and audience. That's something that's always stayed with me, an attitude I'm very sympathetic to. He played for about an hour. This was the first time I'd seen Frippertronics in action (I'm guessing he's digitalized it by now but at the time, he was using two analog tape recorders, threading the tape between them). Very beautiful show. The sound decay was probably about 7-8 minutes and he ended the show by simply stopping playing and sitting on the stool until the sound disappeared several minutes later.

I saw him again about 6-7 years ago down at the World Financial Center, playing both solo and in the company of his League of Guitarists or whatever he calls it. Much less impressive, way too far over toward the new-agey end of the spectrum for my taste.

[john williams]

Brian: I remember reading a story in an old NME or Melody Maker re: a Frippertronc show in England. An rather silly audience member shouted out "Rock 'n' roll!" at some point, to which Fripp replied "Be appropriate".

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

and Peart, well, he's just playing on a whole other level altogether. And considering that he writes most of their tunes, well...........(did you read his book?)

Ghost Rider! I sure did. It's funny, but when I was in Toronto, they had a news item that the book has been optioned as a film. I don't know what will come of that. I loved the book. 20 years ago, Peart was my idol. I pored over all the lyrics he wrote and probably would have fainted if I ever had a chance to meet him. I'm not by any means the only young drummer who felt that way about him.

I think I will pick up the DVD. I haven't really listened to them much in the last couple of years, but I still love their music. Is there a new studio album?

They put out a CD called Vapor Trails in 2002, the first one since the hiatus. They also just released a surprising recording of cover tunes! Something the band said they didn't think they'd ever do. Mostly 60s music. Summertime Blues, stuff like that. I agree about the sound on all their tours being outstanding. But I'm telling you, I saw them at the same venue 10 years ago and it couldn't compare to this past two tours.

Larry