McCain denounces anti-Kerry ad

[Gentle Giant]

A voice of reason on the Republican side. No surprise, but nice to see.

McCain condemns anti-Kerry ads, calls on White House to follow suit
By Ron Fournier, Associated Press, 8/5/2004 10:20

WASHINGTON (AP) Republican Sen. John McCain, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, called an ad criticizing John Kerry's military service ''dishonest and dishonorable'' and urged the White House on Thursday to condemn it as well.

''It was the same kind of deal that was pulled on me,'' McCain said in an interview with The Associated Press, referring to his bitter Republican primary fight with President Bush.

The 60-second ad features Vietnam veterans who accuse the Democratic presidential nominee of lying about his decorated Vietnam War record and betraying his fellow veterans by later opposing the conflict.

''When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry,'' one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the ad.

The ad, scheduled to air in a few markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin, was produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio and Potham, the same team that produced McCain's ads in 2000.

''I wish they hadn't done it,'' McCain said of his former advisers. ''I don't know if they knew all the facts.''

Asked if the White House knew about the ad or helped find financing for it, McCain said, ''I hope not, but I don't know. But I think the Bush campaign should specifically condemn the ad.''

Later, McCain said the Bush campaign has denied any involvement and added, ''I can't believe the president would pull such a cheap stunt.''

The White House did not immediately address McCain's call that they repudiate the spot.

Steve Schmidt, a spokesman for the Bush-Cheney campaign, said Kerry's record and statements on the war on terrorism not his service in Vietnam are fair game. ''The Bush campaign never has and will never question John Kerry's service in Vietnam,'' he said.

In 2000, Bush's supporters sponsored a rumor campaign against McCain in the South Carolina primary, helping Bush win the primary and the nomination. McCain's supporters have never forgiven the Bush team.

McCain said that's all in the past to him, but he's speaking out against the anti-Kerry ad because he believes it's bad for the political system. ''It reopens all the old wounds of the Vietnam War, which I spent the last 35 years trying to heal,'' he said.

''I deplore this kind of politics. I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable. As it is, none of these individuals served on the boat (Kerry) commanded. Many of his crew have testified to his courage under fire. I think John Kerry served honorably in Vietnam. I think George Bush served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard during the Vietnam War.''

McCain himself spent more than five years in a Vietnam prisoner of war camp. A bona fide war hero, McCain, like Kerry, used his war record as the foundation of his presidential campaign.

The Kerry campaign has denounced the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, saying none of the men in the ad served on the boat that Kerry commanded. The leader of the group, retired Adm. Roy Hoffmann, said none of the 13 veterans in the commercial served on Kerry's boat but rather were in other swiftboats within 50 yards of Kerry's.

Jim Rassmann, an Army veteran who was saved by Kerry, said there were only six crewmates who served with Kerry on his boat. Five support his candidacy and one is deceased.

[Dr Dave]

You can be sure there is far worse to come.

[clinthopson]

They will stop at nothing to keep the appointee in the White House.

[patricia]

Winning is EVERYTHING!! IF the Bush gang wins, using these tactics, they will still have gotten their second term.
Considering that impeachment did not follow the discovery of the lies that took the country to war, how likely do you think it will be that anything will happen if they are shown to have engaged in questionable tactics during their campaign??
The public seems to have accepted the myth that taking out Saddam Hussein, on the strength of dubious, cherry-picked intelligence, while wrong, is still the place in which we find ourselves. Destruction and the losses of thousands of lives means nothing. Little blame, if any, has landed on the shoulders of the administration, astoundingly. Unless the electorate does something totally uncharacteristic, grow some cajones, Mr Bush and his cohorts will be the faces of the Presidency for the next four years. Something about "changing canoes in mid-stream", or "better the Devil we know, than the Devil we don't know". The country seems to be being run on the strength of cliches and homilies. "Fool me once.............." Mr Bush can't even get a "saying" right. Just the guy you want leading the country.

Holy Doodle!!!

I'd love to be wrong. Please. Let me be wrong.

It's all about free speech folks.

If these guys feel so strongly about Kerry, they have as much right as the guys who sing his praises to make their voices heard.

I personally feel all of this Vietnam blather is sickening.

The man has been a Senator for 20 years, any chance we'll ever get around to talking about that?

Didn't he say something in his speech at the DNC about the need for stronger intelligence?

Sweetness.

Only something just doesn't quite fit when you look at his record during his time on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

[Dr Dave]

That's a great new avatar, Scott!

Yeah, yeah, yeah, free speech. The ads are personal attacks against John Kerry. If he weren't a public figure, he could take 'em to court for slander.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

It's all about free speech folks.

If these guys feel so strongly about Kerry, they have as much right as the guys who sing his praises to make their voices heard.

I personally feel all of this Vietnam blather is sickening.

The man has been a Senator for 20 years, any chance we'll ever get around to talking about that?

Didn't he say something in his speech at the DNC about the need for stronger intelligence?

Sweetness.

Only something just doesn't quite fit when you look at his record during his time on the Senate Intelligence Committee.

If you are going to refer to Kerry's record on the Senate Intelligence Committee, refer to the WHOLE record.

As for Mr Kerry's mentioning his Vietnam record and his subsequent opposition to that same war, when he returned, at least he was there and saw the debacle, first hand. Mr Bush was........................well, we're not quite sure where, during his apparent service in the National Guard. Of course, that's not relevant, right??
If Mr Bush's supporters are reduced to lying about Mr Kerry, where does that leave the sanctimonious Repubs, with regard to their outrage at Mr Clinton's behaviour, when asked about a private matter, not resulting in
EVEN ONE death, as the Bush administration's lying about WMD has and continues to do??
If Clinton's lying about sex was perjury, then lying about WMD's and lying about Mr Kerry's service in the military surely is also.
Different rules, or is lying, lying, not matter what the lie is??
It seems that the Republicans have too much respect for the truth to use it just any old time.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

It's all about free speech folks.

It's not about free speech at all. Noone's demanding these folks be censored or prohibited from speaking their minds, there has been (AFAIK) not yet been any threat of legal action against them. McCain admonishing the White House to disavow ads produced by a third party is not the same thing at all.

[Root Doctor]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

The man has been a Senator for 20 years, any chance we'll ever get around to talking about that?

Ever taken a gander at Dick Cheney's legislative record? Kerry's is pretty accomplished by comparison.

Originally Posted by Patricia

If you are going to refer to Kerry's record on the Senate Intelligence Committee, refer to the WHOLE record.

Since he's your guy, why not enlighten me.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Since he's your guy, why not enlighten me.

You brought up his legislative record, Scott, so it seems to me that you would not have done so, had you not been familiar with it, having perused the details of his tenure.
Find it and show it to me, with your comments on the votes Mr Kerry cast and the presentations which Mr Kerry made to the august body of legislators.

It's a reasonable request.

Alright, Patricia.

Have it your way. I will try to put something together for you sometime today(it will take awhile, we're talking 20 years worth of votes here).

Until then, check this guy out who is running for President. Check out his NPAT results, and don't forget to read some of his comments. Some are stupid, but others are hilarious.

Vermin Love Supreme

[Chris D]

Kery smoked out Iran-contra. For that alone he's worthy.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Alright, Patricia.

Have it your way. I will try to put something together for you sometime today(it will take awhile, we're talking 20 years worth of votes here).

Until then, check this guy out who is running for President. Check out his NPAT results, and don't forget to read some of his comments. Some are stupid, but others are hilarious.

Vermin Love Supreme

Interesting site. Thank you. I smiled slightly, several times.

Yes, Chris, the smoking out of Iran/Contra was an important accomplishment and only one of the good things with which Mr. Kerry was a part.
Much has been made of Mr Kerry's voting against the 87 million dollars for body armour. He voted against it, not because he wanted the troops to be forced to use sticks with nails and scowls to retaliate, but because he objected to the blank cheque nature of the request for funding. He knew that the bill would be passed, so felt that it was safe to vote the way he did, to make a point. You may feel that it was the wrong bill with which to make this point, but this was a bill which was going to pass, whether Kerry voted for it or not. Even in times of war, blank cheques are chancy. I say, good for Kerry.

[crawjo]

Personally, I think Kerry's Vietnam record should now be fair game. After the convention, he's made his service record front and center for his campaign. If he's going to use it to try to get himself elected, then I think it is fair game for attack ads and so forth.

[Chris D]

Sure, fair game. Emphasis fair. Here's background on the ax grinders, from admittedly slanted Salon, but still, it makes sense to now these aren't just "any" veterans speaking out.
Following material is all quoted:

Different decade, same dirty tricks

With a little bit of help from the Drudge Report, and an ad buy that got their nasty claims in the newspapers, the anti-Kerry Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are getting more than their share of publicity today. And they'll likely get even more in some quarters (like, say, Fox News) as the group's leader, Nixon-anointed Kerry detractor and Houston attorney John O'Neill, publishes his book "Unfit for Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry," coming soon from the conservative publishing house Regnery Publishing.

Hopefully the media will do their job in exposing O'Neill's longtime ties to the GOP and the fact that, as they admit, none of the men who appear in the ads that will run in some markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin today,actually served on Kerry's boat. So how did Larry Thurlow, a vet who appears in the Kerry-bashing ad, know, as he claims, "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry?" Does he know this better than Jim Rassman, who when the chips were down, counted on Kerry to save his life? Or how about James Wasser, a radar man on one of Kerry's swift boats, who says that if Kerry called his band of brothers for one last mission and said they were going to hell, "he'd have a full crew."

The facts of Kerry's service don't really matter to O'Neill, anyway. Attacking Kerry has been O'Neill's role since Nixon tapped him for the job in 1971, as Joe Conason reported in Salon in May, and his latest anti-Kerry effort is now funded and organized by Republicans:

"Behind the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth are veteran corporate media consultant and Texas Republican activist Merrie Spaeth, who is listed as the group's media contact; eternal Kerry antagonist and Houston attorney John E. O'Neill, law partner of Spaeth's late husband, Tex Lezar; and retired Rear Adm. Roy Hoffman, a cigar-chomping former Vietnam commander once described as 'the classic body-count guy' who 'wanted hooches destroyed and people killed.' "

"Spaeth told Salon that O'Neill first approached her last winter to discuss his 'concerns about Sen. Kerry.' O'Neill has been assailing Kerry since 1971, when the former Navy officer was selected for the role by Charles Colson, Richard Nixon's dirty-tricks aide."

Media Matters has more on O'Neill's GOP ties, dating back to Nixon:

"During the CNN interview [with O'Neill], [Wolf] Blitzer reported that former President Richard Nixon had urged O'Neill to publicly counter Kerry on The Dick Cavett Show, but there is more to the story. O'Neill was a creation of the Nixon administration, as Joe Klein detailed in the January 5 issue of The New Yorker. Former Nixon special counsel Chuck Colson told Klein that Kerry was an 'articulate' and 'credible leader' of those veterans calling for an end to the Vietnam War and therefore 'an immediate target of the Nixon Administration.' As such, the Nixon administration found it necessary to 'create a counterfoil' to Kerry.

"Colson recounted, 'We found a vet named John O'Neill and formed a group called Vietnam Veterans for a Just Peace. We had O'Neill meet the President, and we did everything we could do to boost his group.' Articles from the April 21 Houston Chronicle and the June 17, 2003, Boston Globe confirm close ties between O'Neill and the Nixon administration."

[patricia]

I just watched, on CNN, a report that "new terrorist camps" have sprung up in Afghanistan, narrated by Barbara Starr. The report stated that aerial photographs of the camps have come to light. The film of terrorists being trained is the VERY SAME footage that we have been seeing for years. It is the footage with the men on monkey-bars etc. Where is the "new" film of which Ms Starr speaks??
Odd.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by patricia

Much has been made of Mr Kerry's voting against the 87 million dollars for body armour. He voted against it, not because he wanted the troops to be forced to use sticks with nails and scowls to retaliate, but because he objected to the blank cheque nature of the request for funding.

Even more than the blank cheque nature of the request, I believe what bothered most legislators who voted against it (and what really bothers me most about them) is the "emergency" nature of the various spending requests made for the troops - none of these were truly emergency in nature, thinks like body armor were easily foreseeable expenses that should have been in the regular DoD portion of the President's proposed budget. So I think making these ad hoc requests is (a) a bit of dirty pool, b/c the White House should have been responsible enough to include these items in the full budget and (b) some (I have to admit this, albeit begrudgingly) very smart politics, b/c I have to think the administration knew what they were doing - they knew they were presenting legislators who were sitting on the fence with a very tough call, and it would be easy (not necessarily honest, but definitely easy) to paint those voting against as unpatriotic. So leaving these items out of the full budget may have been a conscious decision (IMHO, it probably was), since voting against the full budget is actually a lot easier than voting against these individual items.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Tanager

Even more than the blank cheque nature of the request, I believe what bothered most legislators who voted against it (and what really bothers me most about them) is the "emergency" nature of the various spending requests made for the troops - none of these were truly emergency in nature, thinks like body armor were easily foreseeable expenses that should have been in the regular DoD portion of the President's proposed budget. So I think making these ad hoc requests is (a) a bit of dirty pool, b/c the White House should have been responsible enough to include these items in the full budget and (b) some (I have to admit this, albeit begrudgingly) very smart politics, b/c I have to think the administration knew what they were doing - they knew they were presenting legislators who were sitting on the fence with a very tough call, and it would be easy (not necessarily honest, but definitely easy) to paint those voting against as unpatriotic. So leaving these items out of the full budget may have been a conscious decision (IMHO, it probably was), since voting against the full budget is actually a lot easier than voting against these individual items.

EXACTLY.

[sonic1]

Regarding the Vietnam war and Kerry's record: let me remind yal' that most veterans believe the Vietnam war was a sham. In fact most Americans in general believe it was a stupid war (as I am sure later we will admit about Iraq). So Kerry coming out against Vietnam should not be so surprizing, and in fact, is quite commendable.

My dad (who I met when I was 19) searved two years as an A-gunner shooting snipers in Vietnam. He shouldn't even be alive. Of course "alive" is not the best term for him, he drinks more than anyone I have ever known, has been to prison twice, and is constantly in trouble. He is a fisherman in Washington state and sleeps with the weather radio on, memorizing the weather patterns...

...but he is at least able to tell me the war was shit. Now, why he did two terms I don't know. I suppose because he was there in nearly the beginning. But he gave his sanity for this country, and is still sane enough to say the war was bullshit. And did the country take care of him??? No. They use up these kids and send them "home" with no de-programming; they are treated like pee-on pawns.

So when people give me this whole bullshit patriotism speech, I always remember my father who told me he would kick my ass if he heard I joined the armed forces. This from a man who still works shrapnel out of his skin.

Kerry was right to speak out against that fucking war.

Jared

[patricia]

Thank you Jared. I agree.
Anyone who has actually been involved in fighting a war knows that it is the least desirable option, when resolving global conflict. Perhaps Mr Bush should talk to his father, who was an active military man, instead of Mr Cheney, who was not.

[tristano's ghost]

The White House has declined Senator McCain's demand that they condemn the ad.

[tristano's ghost]

Sure, let's discuss John Kerry's Vietnam service record.
Via Tacitus:

Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (3.91 / 36)
http://www.swiftvets.com/
Some research on this group

Here are the 10 crewmates who served with Kerry in Vietnam. All but Steve Gardner support John Kerry and stood with him as he made his speech to the DNC. (except Tom Belodeau who is deceased).

I'll let them speak for themselves, including Steve Gardner. The following are sourced quotes.

PCF-94
Starting in late January 1969, this crew completed 18 missions over an intense and dangerous 48 days, almost all of them in the dense jungles of the Mekong Delta. The most intense action came during an extraordinary eight days of more than 10 firefights, remembered by Kerry's crew as the "days of hell."

David Alston

Rev. Alston is from Columbia, SC and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Gunners Mate on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

"David Alston was the gunner atop Kerry's pilot house. Kerry, he told an audience here, was a compassionate commander. `We were in a lot of firefights,' Alston said. `You learn a lot about people. After a firefight, John would come up to me and he would put his hand on me and he'd say, 'David, are you all right?' `I didn't know then that I had a man of God on my boat,' Kerry said. `That's probably why I'm here today'." [Orlando Sentinel, 1/31/04]

`Down in the Mekong Delta, we lived together, we fought together, we bled together and we survived together,' said Alston. `Whether we were Democratic or Republican was not the issue,' he said. `The issues at that time were trust, courage, judgment and character.' Alston attached those attributes to Kerry and introduced his friend with no further ceremony." [Providence Journal-Bulletin, 3/23/03]

Alston is the crewmate who gave a speech at the DNC last week. The text is here
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/

Del Sandusky

Mr. Sandusky is from Dunedin, FL and served in Vietnam in the Navy as the senior enlisted man on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

"Kerry commanded a Navy `Swift Boat' that patrolled the Mekong delta. His crew recalls Kerry as brainy and extremely aggressive, `a good leader and a bit of a hard-charger,' says Del Sandusky from Elgin, Ill." [Washington Post, 6/2/02]
"Del Sandusky, 58, of Elgin, Ill., and Clearwater, Fla., served under Kerry on a patrol boat in 1969. When another boat hit a mine, Kerry ordered the dead and injured brought on board and the sinking boat towed, six or seven miles, to the Gulf of Tonkin. Because Americans had died on the boat, Kerry, out of loyalty, wouldn't leave it behind for the enemy. `All the boat crew men volunteered to help in anyway we can,' with Kerry's political campaigns, Sandusky said. `Whatever he wants, we'll help him with. Because we believe in him.' " [AP, 12/6/02]

Fred Short

Mr. Short is from North Little Rock, AR and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Gunners Mate on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

"In 1969, I was Sen. Kerry's gun mate atop of the Swift boat in Vietnam. And I just wanted to let everyone know that, contrary to all the rumors that you might hear from the other side, Sen. Kerry's blood is red, not blue. I know, I've seen it.

"If it weren't for Sen. John Kerry, on the 28th of February 1969, the day he won the Silver Star . . . you and I would not be having this conversation. My name would be on a long, black wall in Washington, D.C. I saw this man save my life."3
3La Ganga, Maria L. "Crewmates Attest to Kerry's Mettle as Wartime Commander." Los Angeles Times. 29 July 2004 (p. A13). Zoroya, Greg. "Vietnam Crewmates Steady at Kerry's Side." USA Today. 29 July 2004 (p. A4).

Gene Thorson

Mr. Thorson is from Ames, Iowa and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Engineman on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

In support of this grassroots deployment, 73,000 Iowa veteran households received a mailing in December from Kerry's Vietnam swift boat crewmate Gene Thorsen, of Ames, IA, rallying them to "stand up for John Kerry the same way he stands up for veterans."

He said he knew back then that the skipper of his boat, John Kerry, was bound for high places. Almost 30 years later, Thorson got a call from Kerry asking for political help. Now, he often gives up his weekends to travel with other veterans and campaign with Kerry on his run for president.
By: Matt Neznanski, Staff Writer July 19, 2004
Ames Tribune

"He took care of all of us. He really did," Thorson said.
Des Moines Register

Tom Belodeau is deceased, he served on PCF-94 with Kerry

Kerry was helped by the fact that Belodeau stood beside him and said he had been misquoted."This man was not lying on the ground. This man was more than capable of destroying that boat and everybody on it. Senator Kerry did not give him that opportunity," Belodeau said. He also said that he was not sure whether or not he had hit the attacker.
May 06, 2004 National Review Online

Mike Medeiros

Mr. Medeiros is from San Leandros, California and served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-94 with Senator Kerry.

"He made good decisions, I believe proper decisions," said Mike Medeiros of San Leandro, Calif., who served for four months on Kerry's swift boat in Vietnam. "And the fact that we all returned alive is a good indication that they were the right decisions."Medeiros was reunited with Kerry in 1996, when Republicans were attacking his military record in a heated Senate race. Kerry's crew mates came to set the record straight at the Charlestown Navy Yard, the same place they stood shoulder-to-shoulder on the eve of his nomination acceptance.
ABCNEWS.com July 28, 2004 From AP

PFC-44
Kerry captained this ship from November 1968 to January 1969. This command saw considerably less action

Jim Wasser

Mr. Wasser is from St. Anne, IL and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Radarman on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.

Mr. Kerry took command of P.C.F.-44 with a veteran crew headed by Mr. Wasser, a radarman second class. "Always, when there's a new guy on the boat, you check him out," Mr. Wasser said. "It only took me a few days. We knew that we had somebody special that cared for us. We bonded."
Combative and politically conservative, Mr. Wasser, from Kankakee, Ill., had a pair of American flags tattooed on his shoulder and still loathes Jane Fonda.
NYTimes Febuary 24 2004

What I saw back then [in Vietnam] was a guy with genuine caring and leadership ability who was aggressive when he had to be. What I see now is a guy who's not afraid to tackle tough issues. And he knows what the consequences are of putting people's kids in harm's way."

2. Braun, Stephen. "Kerry's War Tour Serves as Theme, Target." Los Angeles Times. 29 July 2004 (p. A13). Brinkley, Douglas. Tour of Duty: John Kerry and the Vietnam War. New York: HarperCollins, 2004. ISBN 0-06-056523-3. Klein, Joe. "The Long War of John Kerry." The New Yorker. 2 December 2002. Kranish, Michael. "John F. Kerry: Candidate in the Making -- Part 2: Heroism, and Growing Concern About War." The Boston Globe. 16 June 2003.

Drew Whitlow

Mr. Whitlow is from Huntsville, AR and served in Vietnam in the Navy as a Boatswain Mate on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.

"I figured with the abilities he had, he was going to go high, but I didn't have any idea about him running for president," said Whitlow, 57, wearing a cap decorated with Kerry campaign pins.
Whitlow said he recalled Kerry as a humble seaman when he joined Whitlow's crew as a lieutenant junior grade in 1968.

Kerry told crewmates, "I know you guys don't need me but I sure need you," said Whitlow, who served as a boatswain mate.

"He accepted us for who we were," Whitlow said. "The decisions that he made saved our lives.

"He never shot from the hip when it came to decisions," Whitlow said. "He'd always confront the problems head on."

Whitlow, a Kerry campaign coordinator for veterans in western and southern Arkansas, began campaigning for Kerry in September 2003. In January, Whitlow traveled with Kerry to Iowa and New Hampshire.
The Times Record Fort Smith, Arkansas Thursday, July 29, 2004

Bill Zaladonis

Mr. Zaladonis is from Sanford, FL and served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.

"I never saw John back down from anything," crewmember Bill Zaladonis says
April 13, 2004 USA Today

Steve Hatch

Mr. Hatch served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator Kerry.
Stephen W. Hatch of Altoona, Pa., with four tattoos, who says he supports Mr. Kerry though he wants no part of politics.
NYTimes Febuary 24 2004

"He wouldn't let you go randomly down the river shooting up everything in sight," says Stephen Hatch, who served on the first of Kerry's two boats.
April 13, 2004 USA Today

Stephen M. Gardner
Served in Vietnam in the Navy on PCF-44 with Senator John Kerry
"Kerry was chickenshit," he insists. "Whenever a firefight started he always pulled up stakes and got the hell out of Dodge."

"I was driving down the road, and I hit that [radio] button and Rush was talking about Kerry and his campaign and how something just didn't feel right to him," Gardner recalled, his voice full of conviction. "Something about what John Kerry did or was doing, just really didn't set right with him. And you know I served with this guy, and the bottom line to it is; harsh as this may sound or as good as it sounds to any Democrat, out there, John Kerry is another `Slick Willy.' He's another Bill Clinton and that's exactly what he is. And I'm telling you right now, that if John Kerry gets to be president of these United States, it'll be a sorry day in this world for us. We can't stand another Democrat like that in there again. We'll get our asses in such a sling this time; we won't be able to get out of it. And the bottom line to it is, I don't care how much John Kerry's changed after he moved off my boat, his initial patterns of behavior when I met him and served under him was somebody who ran from the enemy, rather than engaged it. If I'd had Rush's 800 number, or known how to reach him, I would have called in."

"I've told a few of my friends that he was an asshole," Gardner says. "But I'm not looking to make news."

"Kerry sat some of them down and convinced them to buy into his side of what happened over there,"

"When you're as persuasive as Kerry it's not hard to make a guy change something that he saw."

A recent interview with Gardner is at the Time link. The interview explains why he haven't been heard of until recently. All of the Gardner quotes are here and more.
The author of the Time article states that he believes Gardner's motives are political, and after reading what he had to say I'm inclined to agree.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/prin...599034,00.html

Jim Rassmann was not a crewmate but I think belongs here.
Jim Rassmann

Mr. Rassmann is from Florence, OR and served in Vietnam as a Special Forces Officer in the Army.

He clung to the net as bullets whizzed past. `Next thing I knew, John came out in the middle of all this,' Rassmann says. `I couldn't believe it. He was going to get killed. He ran to the edge, reached over with his good arm [Kerry had been wounded in his right arm] and pulled me over the lip.' Rassmann later recommended Kerry for the Silver Star, and was upset when the Army instead awarded Kerry a lesser Bronze Star with a `V' for valor." [Los Angeles Times, 3/13/04]

Under [Navy Admiral Elmo] Zumwalt's command, swift boats would aggressively engage the enemy. Zumwalt, who died in 2000, calculated in his autobiography that these men under his command had a 75 percent chance of being killed or wounded during a typical year.
Here is Kerry's request to go to Vietnam
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilse...tboat_Duty.pdf

Swiftboats

Interesting
http://www.montereyherald.com/mld/mc...on/9142574.htm

Research:

I have seen this website. It reminds me of the attack on John McCain 2000.

The leader of this group, John O'Neill didn't meet Kerry until 1971.

from the website

"our group includes men who served beside Kerry in combat as well as his commanders."

The only man here who served beside Kerry in combat is Steve Gardner.
http://www.time.com/time/nation/prin...599034,00.html

Here is what his commanders said about Kerry in his fitness reports.
Lieutenant Commander George Elliott

In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.

During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard

Hibbard's evaluation was brief and incomplete because Hibbard oversaw Kerry's service for only about two weeks. Kerry's duty under Hibbard included "counter infiltration operations against Viet Cong forces. Engaged in combat operations." Hibbard marked a few performance categories, noting that Kerry's initiative, cooperation, and bearing ranked among the top few. But unlike other evaluators who wrote about specific actions by Kerry, Hibbard did not do so, providing this explanation: "The short period LTJG Kerry was attached to Coast Division 14 prevents further evaluation."

Captain Adrian Lonsdale

In the November 4, 1996, issue of South Coast Today, wrote: "Adrian Lonsdale remembers a young John F. Kerry as a naval officer who was a good debater, even back in his days in Vietnam. "'He and I and others used to have long discussions at the officers club,' said Mr. Lonsdale of Mattapoisett, a former Coast Guard officer who commanded a division in which the Massachusetts senator was attached back in 1969. 'They were very spirited discussions about the war and the politics back home.' "'He was opposed to the war but it didn't make any difference in his performance,' said the former owner and still instructor at Northeast Maritime Institute in New Bedford. 'He was a very good officer.' "Capt. Lonsdale was among a group of former Vietnam veterans the Massachusetts Democrat brought to the Charlestown navy yard recently to rebut a Boston Globe column that raised questions about Sen. Kerry's Vietnam service, particularly the Silver Star he won. "Mr. Lonsdale was in charge of a two-division flotilla opereating [sic] out of Phu Quoc, a big island near the Cambodian border. One division was made up of Swift boats, fast 50-foot offshore boats, while the other was composed of 82-foot Coast Guard patrol boats."
Note this is not a fitness report

Admiral Zumwalt

Admiral Zumwalt signed Kerry's silver star recommendation. In 1996, he defended John Kerry in the midst of a close political campaign. Admiral Zumwalt is deceased, his son decided to speak on his behalf on the website .

Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann

I had a quote from Vietnam but I lost it. I will find it and out it another email.
He did not write a fitness report.

Captain Charles Plumly

Kerry was under his command for a brief time. There are no reports from him about Kerry from 1969.

Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott

Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively:
... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

Captain Allen W. Slifer

October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer: "A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising. "

Admiral Walter F. Schlech

March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
"... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career."

Captain E.W. Harper, Jr

September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:
LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.

The last Four Commanders here are not mentioned on the website, but I think their evaluation of him belongs here. This list includes all Navy fitness reports.

The other men on this website do not claim to have served with, commanded, or even know Kerry.

I believe most of these men are anti-Kerry because of his activities after the war. If you read their statements, most don't even mention his service in Vietnam. The ones who do had something very different to say at the time. (except Gardner who said nothing then)

It is their right to campaign against Kerry, but not to rewrite Kerry's service in Veitnam.

The Commanders are career officers and I believe more likely to oppose anti-war activities

This group has a couple big financial backers from Texas, who are not mentioned on the website. Their political donations for 2002 in Texas are noted below. They are also donors at the national level to republicans.

Registered as a "527" organization with the Internal Revenue Service, the "Swift Boat Veterans" group can raise and spend unlimited amounts of money for campaign activities, but is prohibited from working directly with the Bush campaign or the Republican Party.

http://membership.publicintegrity.or...cs/9558357.pdf

This group has $158,000.

$100,000 from Bob Perry he is from Texas

Bob Perry donated $2,983,500 in fiscal year 2002 in Texas, 96,4% to republicans
As far as I can tell he did not serve in the military, he is not mentioned on the website

http://www.followthemoney.org/databa...00243&d=562077

$25,000 from Harlan Crow he is from Texas

Harlan Crow donated $323,200 in fiscal year 2002 in Texas, 86% to republicans
As far as I can tell he did not serve in the military, he is not mentioned on the website

He is a Trustee of the Bush Library
http://www.georgebushfoundation.org/...w/Trustees.asp
http://www.followthemoney.org/databa...00243&d=562787

$25,000 from O'Neill
O'Neill is the leader of this group.

[tristano's ghost]

Now that we've discussed John Kerry's service record, and the group that's attacking him and why, care to discuss George W. Bush's service record? Or shall we discuss how loathsome and morally bankrupt a party is when their preferred & only campaigning method is to impugn the honor, service, and loyalty of any soldier-candidate who is either Democratic (Kerry, Clark) or running against their annointed guy (McCain)?

[tristano's ghost]

Of course, the deceased guy is probably the only one who knows the REAL story and was undoubtedly offed by Kerry's crew, working in conjunction with the Clintons. Quick, tell Drudge!

[patricia]

I'm still waiting for all the enlisted men, who were in the National Guard, with Mr Bush, to tell their amusing anecdotes of their years serving with him.
Where are they?? Surely if there are men who have stories of Mr Bush's patriotic service to his country, they would remember. Apparently nobody does. That strikes me as odd. If I had served with a President of the United States, I would remember something about that service, if only to boost my reputation as one who has rubbed shoulders with the great and near-great. Strangely, nobody remembers GWB.

[tristano's ghost]

That's a very interesting question!

Speaking of intelligence, I wonder what Dick Cheney had to say about intell reform when he was Secretary of Defense in 1992? Atrios was wondering the same thing this morning:

Some of the most important intelligence reforms proposed by the 9-11 Commission, including the creation of a Director of National Intelligence (DNI), might have been adopted over a decade ago if not for the opposition of the Secretary of Defense at the time, Dick Cheney.

In a March 1992 letter to Congress, Secretary Cheney defended the status quo and objected to proposed intelligence reform legislation, particularly the DNI position.

"The roles of the Secretary of Defense and the Director of Central Intelligence have evolved in a fashion that meets national, departmental and tactical intelligence needs," Cheney wrote.

The intelligence reform proposals "would seriously impair the effectiveness of this arrangement by assigning inappropriate authority to the proposed Director of National Intelligence (DNI), who would become the director and manager of internal DoD activities that in the interest of efficiency and effectiveness must remain under the authority, direction, and control of the Secretary of Defense," he wrote.

A companion letter from the DoD General Counsel elaborated on Secretary Cheney's objections, complaining that the intelligence reform proposal would "give the DNI far more extensive authority and responsibility for program and budget matters than is now exercised by the DCI," which is indeed the whole point.

Secretary Cheney successfully torpedoed the initiative with his warning that "I would recommend that the President veto [the measure] if [it] were presented to him in its current form."

Full story here

[tristano's ghost]

BTW, even Bill O'Reilly denounced the so-called "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" on his radio show this morning. Ya know, when O'Reilly tells you that you've gone overboard, so to speak... well, it just might be time to take a shower.

[tristano's ghost]

One last note: go to this C-Span page and click on Max Cleland's DNC speech. Go to about the 12:45 mark and watch till 13:30. You'll see Kerry first embrace Max Cleland. The guys he then embraces are the crew that served under him. The guy at the very end is Jim Rassmann, the Special Forces soldier (and registered Republican) whose life he saved.
Ironic, isn't it, that Kerry's leadership brought these guys all back alive... Watch that video and tell me that his men didn't believe in him. They did then and they do now. And their testimony tells me more about the heart & character and soul of a man than any GOP-funded hate propaganda ever will.

As was said to Senator McCarthy: "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you no sense of decency?"

[Root Doctor]

Originally Posted by tristano's ghost

As was said to Senator McCarthy: "Have you no sense of decency, sir? At long last, have you no sense of decency?"

Sadly, I believe the answer is, "no."