Difficult leaders to work with

[crawjo]

Vote. By work with, I mean if you were a musician in one of their groups, not if you were their cleaning lady or something like that.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Mingus got angry and Sonny was strange and Cecil demanding, but I vote for Miles, who seemed capable of a meanness I don't associate with the others.

[Lastonein]

Some years ago I was on vacation in London and visited the famous Ronnie Scott's club to catch Elvin Jones.

Ronnie Scott came to the bar were I was standing and was clearly in some pain. I asked what the problem was and he replied " It's my back. I've had a problem ever since I started bending over backwards to please that ******* Stan Getz when he appeared at the club"

Apparently Stan could be a bit difficult.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

That famous Ronnie/Stan Getz story!

He (Getz) was used to intimidating "lesser" musicians as a point of principle. At the gig at Ronnie's he said something to Stan Tracey in mid number and Tracey just looked up at him and quietly said, “Why don’t you just "Fuck Off". Getz then shut up and completely backed off.

When Zoot Simms was asked about Getz ..he said, "Which one?...of the five ?

[Nate Dorward]

David Krakauer, to judge by the concert I saw of his (where he shrilled into the mike for an hour & barely let any of his first-class band take a solo) & to judge by the completely different personnel on every single release of his--turnover seems to be brisk.

[Boris Badenov]

Why isn't Buddy Rich on this list?

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

David Krakauer, to judge by the concert I saw of his (where he shrilled into the mike for an hour & barely let any of his first-class band take a solo) & to judge by the completely different personnel on every single release of his--turnover seems to be brisk.

Gee, I've always liked his playing, and his albums.

[Nate Dorward]

The concert was OK, if you didn't mind the egotism on display, & the one Klezmer Madness disc I have is fine. But the point of the thread was bandlanders who were pains to work with, whether or not their music was any good. I'll admit that Krakauer loses out to someone like Mingus, who on various occasions pulled a knife on a sideman or smashed him across the mouth.

Benny Goodman of course should also have been on the original list--ever read accounts of his USSR tour? Yikes. & maybe Lionel Hampton, to judge by the account in Scott De Veaux's book on bebop.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

Benny Goodman of course should also have been on the original list--ever read accounts of his USSR tour?

One of BG's musicians was asked what it was like to play a tour in a strict, totalitarian state, and he replied, "We're used to it, we work for Benny."

[jazzy mary]

I voted for Charles because he could be physicallly violent but Benny and Getz sound even worse, from what I've heard. How about Paul Anka!!? LOL!

[Pete C]

I hear Dennis Gonzalaz is a mother to work for.


Actually, he's a father to work for.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

One of BG's musicians was asked what it was like to play a tour in a strict, totalitarian state, and he replied, "We're used to it, we work for Benny."

That's a good one, Steve.

I actually voted for Sun Ra, though, because he expected his musicians to devote their entire life to being part of his band. Charlie was hot-tempered and Miles could be nasty, but at least they let their employees go home to their families!

[GodSpeliZed]

My vote is for Sun Ra. If you were a member of his Arkestra, then you had to be able to be even his *cleaning lady* (assuming for true what I read on a magazine which usually don't like to gossip.....)

[Alastair]

Originally Posted by GodSpeliZed

My vote is for Sun Ra. If you were a member of his Arkestra, then you had to be able to be even his *cleaning lady*

I've never heard it called that before.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Boris Badenov

Why isn't Buddy Rich on this list?

Good question!

[Gary Sisco]

I never worked for any of them, so how could I know?

[idlehands]

Seeing as how it's really difficult to work for someone who's dead, I would have to say that Cecil would be the least difficult of the bunch....

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Chet Baker was definitely the worst to work for. Had a different band every 2 to 3 days.

[Gordon B]

Stan Getz is alleged to have been a terrible leader to work with until he got sober late in his life.

Dennis, who are some of the easiest leaders to work with, besides yourself?

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by groover

I actually voted for Sun Ra, though, because he expected his musicians to devote their entire life to being part of his band.

Worked for Gilmore and Marshall Allen.

[walto]

By some accounts (particularly Drumbo's), Van Vliet might have been worse than any of 'em.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

Worked for Gilmore and Marshall Allen.

They were content with it, but where are they now? Sun Ra was the total opposite of Art Blakey, who seeded the jazz community with a host of talented players who went on to become leaders in their own right.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by groover

They were content with it, but where are they now? Sun Ra was the total opposite of Art Blakey, who seeded the jazz community with a host of talented players who went on to become leaders in their own right.

Allen leads the Sun Ra Arkestra.

Gilmore is dead. He would probably be dead regardless of who he worked for. However, he was a member of Blakey's band in the mid-60's. He did gig outside of the Arkestra.

[Valerie]

i can't imagine anyone more difficult to work for than mingus was. for a musician to work under that level of emotional stress combined with incredibly challenging music is mind-boggling. but most had a choice and thought it was well worth it!

[groover]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Allen leads the Sun Ra Arkestra.

Gilmore is dead. He would probably be dead regardless of who he worked for. However, he was a member of Blakey's band in the mid-60's. He did gig outside of the Arkestra.

Well, there you go! Ra's band was difficult to get into and difficult to leave. You could also make an argument that he was difficult to work with because of the possible stigma of associating with an alien from Saturn. Then again, maybe Blakey was more difficult by virtue of the fact that he had such high turnover in his band.

[clinthopson]

The stories about Goodman are legendary. From what I can determine Benny was a major league asshole.

How about a poll on easiest to work with? I would imagine that Basie, Woody and Kenton (as long as you had the energy) would be on the list.

[frankiepop]

i sense that the mere thread title is pretty much on edge defamation. i had read a lot about cecil taylor and sun ra, and i never read where they were difficult by musicians. i suppose its out.. obviously, they were demanding.

miles was tough and the downbeat quote where miles mentioned that he told the scofield not to practice to the audience - that seems to haunt his memory. pissed some off. tho i dont know if scofield ever bitch about miles. maybe so. miles clearly seemed iconclastic and demanding too, but the interviews of band members seem to suggest that the overall experience was positive. the carter, hancock...group seem to have a lot of say. in fact, i remember one story where they went to miles and reamed him for not practising..and stuff.........

on the the otherhand, getz, baker, goodman, mingus, and are documented as difficult to work for. the documentary on monk suggests that monk may have been frustrating at times to work for. .......

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Allen leads the Sun Ra Arkestra.

Gilmore is dead. He would probably be dead regardless of who he worked for. However, he was a member of Blakey's band in the mid-60's. He did gig outside of the Arkestra.

Pete, do you have Paul Bley's "Turns" with Gilmore, Peacock, and Motian? It's a good one.