Barry Guy / LJCO - Harmos

[Steve Reynolds]

did I start a thread with this name back in the day?

the tune is about 43 minutes and something anf it always makes me cry

as dave hubbard might know, this one has me conducting


Barry Guy is a genius


this is pretty


it is also tough and it means more than one might think it means]


it is also gorgeous and beautiful

it is also for Sisco




peace and blessings

[Pete C]

welcome back, Steve.

yawn.

[Brian Olewnick]

Pete, you might enjoy 'Harmos'.....

[Gordon B]

Steve, how could you write about Harmos and not mention the recording engineer who helped raise this record from merely top-shelf to one of the greatest records of the last 20 years? Maybe the *greatest*?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Pete, you might enjoy 'Harmos'.....

I might. It's Reynolds I find boring.

[Gordon B]

Isn't anybody else a Harmos fan? I'm playing it now. It's the disc I've played the most in the last eight years. Listening to Harmos is always an emotional experience.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I might. It's Reynolds I find boring.

Aw, go roast a duck.

[bostontricky]

Can anyone give a quick rundown on Harmos vs. Ode? I've got the latter, and the former is on my "short" list (of 100 or so)...

[Steve Reynolds]

totally unlike each other

like 2 different bands - which in most respects they are

Jormos is a melodically based long form composition - as you know, Ode is anyhting but that

fwiw - I also love Ode - but for completely different reasons

[Jon Abbey]

I think Ode's their best, it has a rough edge to it that none of the later ones do.

[Dan G]

As much as I like Harmos, I prefer Theoria (Irene Schweizer is preferable to Riley, and there's a really good Paul Dunmall section) and Double Trouble Two.

Ode is a completely different thing, like comparing Globe Unity to the Berlin Contemporary Jazz Orchestra, yes its Schlippenbach and some of the same guys, but whole different approach.

Stringer is the odd LJCO, sort of a transition from the ragged comp/improv/comp stuff to the much more structured work, and a couple of Germans brought in to roughen up the mix (Brotzmann and Kowald).

Anyone have any idea if Guy has plans for the New Orchestra to record again in the near future. Inscape Tableaux was too good to be a one off.

[Nate Dorward]

Ode's a bit hard-boiled, but on my last pass through it I came to like it a bit more than in the past. I think Derek Bailey was right to exclude the lousy Stan Kentonish final moment though on the original Incus 2LP release (it was excluded for time considerations? Yeah RIGHT).

Harmos....an important disc for me though nowadays it seems to me a little less monumental than in the past--the march that turns up a little after the long exposition of the main theme seems to me rather pompous, & when the whole thing drops into a "jazz" passage with Riley &--was it Dunmall? I forget--it doesn't quite work (Lytton's not a great jazz drummer, really!). But it seems churlish to complain about those episodes considering the highpoints, like Watts' long feature at the start & Evan Parker's feature near the end. It's been a while since I've played it & probably should get back to it. Hooray, with my LP player back in commission I can also revisit Stringer & the Zurich Concerts...!

[Rob C]

I've only heard Harmos and Theoria from the LJCO and think they're about equal--which is to say, equally great. As is Inscape-Tableaux.

I've also been enjoying Odyssey--Guy/Crispell/Lytton--some free improv, some Guy compositions from the LJCO, New Orchestra, etc. Good stuff. Interesting to hear the big band comps in a piano trio context.

I listened to a little of Guy's Study II-Witch Gong Game disc recently at a used store. Didn't end up buying it, but I did get the chance to see the reproduction of his graphic score in the liners. Something to behold!

[Steve Reynolds]

good point, Dan - about that Dunmall section in Theoria - on my last recent listen I was thinking the same thing - might even be better than Harmos

btw - Double Trouble & Double Trouble II are also fantastic - the second with the dueling pianos of Marilyn & Irene

[Dan G]

Originally Posted by Rob C

I listened to a little of Guy's Study II-Witch Gong Game disc recently at a used store. Didn't end up buying it, but I did get the chance to see the reproduction of his graphic score in the liners. Something to behold!

OH yeah, these things are beautiful.

Witch Gong Game

Witch Gong Game II/I0

[Paul B]

I was lucky enough years ago to sit in on a ROVA rehearsal of that piece, which they recorded on Bingo. The chart is indeed something to behold.

Bye-ya.

[Pete C]

Those scores look great. The visual style reminds me of Tom Phillips' book work. I suspect Guy & Phillips know each other.

[Nate Dorward]

I don't know if Guy & Phillips know each other, but the scores are based on artworks by Alan Davies (or Davie? I always forget).

[Gordon B]

I rate Theoria as equal with Harmos and the two Double Troubles are my next favorites. I also like Zurich Concerts and Three Pieces for Orchestra but for some reason I've never warmed to Ode. I'm missing Stringer.
I've also got some great live performances of Theoria, Harmos, Double Trouble, and Inscape Tableaux.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Pete, you might enjoy 'Harmos'.....

Well, I finally heard this much ballyhooed masterpiece, and I did indeed find it boring, the high technical level of musicianship notwithstanding. To my unsophisticated ears, much of it sounds like boring 20th century academic classical composition, some of it sounds like 2nd-rate free jazz generally lacking in soul (and I don't necessarily mean in a "black" sense), and the Mingusian melodic stuff that starts about 2/3 in, while not unpleasant, feels like it's coming from left field. It all sounds like it's trying very hard to be "important," and ultimately it seems pretty derivative--not that originality is a requisite, but I suspect some of the work's champions ascribe more originality to it than I'm hearing. But, then, what do I know?

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Well, I finally heard this much ballyhooed masterpiece, and I did indeed find it boring, the high technical level of musicianship notwithstanding. To my unsophisticated ears, much of it sounds like boring 20th century academic classical composition, some of it sounds like 2nd-rate free jazz generally lacking in soul (and I don't necessarily mean in a "black" sense), and the Mingusian melodic stuff that starts about 2/3 in, while not unpleasant, feels like it's coming from left field. It all sounds like it's trying very hard to be "important," and ultimately it seems pretty derivative--not that originality is a requisite, but I suspect some of the work's champions ascribe more originality to it than I'm hearing. But, then, what do I know?

Ouch!

Tell us how you really feel, Pete.



Cheers,

Rob

[Nate Dorward]

Look at it this way: my initial impression (circa 1994) was that it was a knockout, & my admiration for it has gradually receded over the years. Whereas Pete's estimate can only go up!


I guess I should give it another spin but frankly I don't pull this one out much anymore except when I'm in a "let's listen to stuff I liked 10 years ago" mood. It still gives me a warm fuzzy feeling despite all that though, even the slightly cheesy "jazz" section with Riley near the end.

[Steve Reynolds]

I'm gonna try to play it today with my new ears

I think after I started this thread - I listened to Theoria and I think Theoria is a different Can of Worms

fwiw - interesting comments Pete. I certainly can understand your feelings (I only vehemnetly disagree with the second rate part - but that's old ground for us) - but the mention of the portion that seems to come out of left field is not a new one - there are many who think that this sort of melodic or real jazzy stuff doesn't work within the band's concept - my feelings are mixed

that said, you would like Theoria quite a bit more - much tougher stuff....

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

I'm gonna try to play it today with my new ears

I think after I started this thread - I listened to Theoria and I think Theoria is a different Can of Worms

fwiw - interesting comments Pete. I certainly can understand your feelings (I only vehemnetly disagree with the second rate part - but that's old ground for us) - but the mention of the portion that seems to come out of left field is not a new one - there are many who think that this sort of melodic or real jazzy stuff doesn't work within the band's concept - my feelings are mixed

that said, you would like Theoria quite a bit more - much tougher stuff....

I don't think Pete would like Theoria any more than Harmos. Steve, listen again, then vote in my poll. I'll be interested in your revised comments.

[frankiepop]

maybe he would. it may be that pete c just has an abhorrence to

melodically based long form composition.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by frankiepop

maybe he would. it may be that pete c just has an abhorrence to

melodically based long form composition.

No, just to poorly integrated long-form composition.

Edit: Oh, I see you were riffin' on Reynolds.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

Pete's estimate can only go up!

Not really, since I don't expect I'll be giving it another spin. There's too much other stuff out there to catch up on. I plan to stay out of Harmos' way.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Not really, since I don't expect I'll be giving it another spin. There's too much other stuff out there to catch up on. I plan to stay out of Harmos' way.

Your schtick may have some appeal here, but it won't play in Theoria.

[Pete C]

Gordon: beautiful!

[Dr Dave]

Well, we all know I'm just a philistine anyway, but to even read the name "London Jazz Composers Orchestra" induces a kind of narcolepsy...