Who is the greatest pitcher of all time?

[crawjo]

Well, what the hell, a companion thread to go with the other one. I think the choice here is pretty obvious myself, but I'm sure others will disagree.

[Steve Reynolds]

Lefty Grove with Pedro a close second

[walto]

No Hank Aguirre??

[BFrank]

Koufax - without a doubt.

[frankenmeister7]

Originally Posted by BFrank

Koufax - without a doubt.

and then some

[crawjo]

I'd take Randy Johnson over Sandy Koufax.

[RBS]

Koufax. The man had six years that no one will ever match.

Why did you leave out Nolan Ryan?

[GoodSpeak]

Um.


Did youse guys forget about Nolan Ryan?

You know, the all-time strikeout leader?


Nolie. All-time the best.

[crawjo]

Nolan Ryan is not one of the 25 greatest pitchers of all time. Bert Blyleven was better. Ryan lost 292 games and walked way, way, way too many batters to ever be considered the greatest ever.

Hell, he never even won a single Cy Young Award.

[Captain Hate]

I'm glad that somebody else had the insight to pick the great Washington Senator Walter Johnson. A record 110 shutouts, which partially explains why on the pathetic Nats he still had 10 straight seasons of 20 wins. 3,508 K's and 417 wins, second only to Cy Young. Fuck the rest, Big Train's the best.

[Sergio Zamora]

[Ron Thorne]

Me in 1954,'55 and '56. At least in a miniscule portion of the country. Oh yeah, he said "of all time".

Oops.

It was a harmless, if self-indulgent response.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Ron Thorne

Me in 1954,'55 and '56. At least in a miniscule portion of the country. Oh yeah, he said "of all time".

Oops.

It was a harmless, if self-indulgent response.

I liked it anyway. Did you have a good curve back then?

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Nolan Ryan is not one of the 25 greatest pitchers of all time. Bert Blyleven was better. Ryan lost 292 games and walked way, way, way too many batters to ever be considered the greatest ever.

Hell, he never even won a single Cy Young Award.

Bert Blyleven...wha-?

How many strikeouts did he have?




Is he even in the top 50?







This is comparable to saying Barry Bonds is just another left fielder.

[crawjo]

Bert Blyleven had 3,701 strikeouts. He also had 1,322 walks, which is less than half the total number of walks Nolan Ryan had in his career.

Blyleven's lifetime winning percentage: .534.
Ryan's lifetime winning percentage: .526.

When you factor in the league he played in and the park he pitched in, Blyleven's ERA was 18 percent better than the league average for his career. Ryan's was 12 percent.

Ryan had a lot more strikeouts, but again he also had a lot more walks. Both were fine pitchers. Blyleven was better.

[crawjo]

Pitchers better than Nolan Ryan

Kid Nichols
Cy Young
Ed Walsh
Mordecai Brown
Walter Johnson
Pete Alexander
Christy Mathewson
Lefty Grove
Satchel Paige
Smokey Joe Williams
Bill Foster
Bob Feller
Carl Hubbell
Warren Spahn
Whitey Ford
Ferguson Jenkins
Sandy Koufax
Juan Marichal
Bob Gibson
Tom Seaver
Jim Palmer
Steve Carlton
Gaylord Perry
Bert Blyleven
Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Tom Glavine
Pedro Martinez

No, I can't name 50 pitchers better than Ryan. But I'd take these 29 before him. In my eyes, Ryan is in the same league as guys like Phil Niekro and Robin Roberts.

[stonemonkts]

Ryan was too wild for too long early on to put up the type of stats worthy of an all-time best list.

But I'll tell you what, when he was in the zone, I don't think ANY pitcher was ever that good. At least no one in my lifetime.

I chose Walter Johnson too. In the modern era, I'd go with Koufax or Gibson. I'm a big fan of Tom Seaver, but Gibson was a notch above, imo (and Koufax was otherworldly).

[Jon Abbey]

you left out Felix Heredia.

[GoodSpeak]

Mordecai Brown?


[ohmigod]


I guess single season and lifetime accomplishments don't account for much in your world, eh?

I could name ten players who were better than Honus Wagner or Ty Cobbs, but how can you just blithly cast aside the all-time strikeout leader simply upon the basis of a numbers crunching? Ted Williams was a prolific hitter, but a medium fielder by today's standards. Are we now to assume his single season .400 hitting percentage means nothing now? That he shouldn't be considered among the greatest of all time???


Something's seriously wrong with today's younger generation.



Wow.

[GoodSpeak]

5714 strikeouts, Crawjo.

Nobody even comes close to that number.

3.19 ERA

324 wins, all-time.


Walks my butt.


Did they score?


Gimme a break here, huh.

[BFrank]

I think Goodie would like to see Felix Rodriguez' name on this list, too.

Meanwhile, here are a few Koufax stats. Hard to argue the numbers.

SEASON TEAM---W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO
1961 LA Dodgers 18 13 3.52 42 35 15 2 1 --- 255.2 212 117 100 27 3 96 269
1962 LA Dodgers 14 7 2.54 28 26 11 2 1 --- 184.1 134 61 52 13 2 57 216
1963 LA Dodgers 25 5 1.88 40 40 20 11 0 --- 311.0 214 68 65 18 3 58 306
1964 LA Dodgers 19 5 1.74 29 28 15 7 1 --- 223.0 154 49 43 13 0 53 223
1965 LA Dodgers 26 8 2.04 43 41 27 8 2 --- 335.2 216 90 76 26 5 71 382
1966 LA Dodgers 27 9 1.73 41 41 27 5 0 --- 323.0 241 74 62 19 0 77 317

[hard to line up the stats corrrectly, but you get the idea]

[Ron Thorne]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I liked it anyway. Did you have a good curve back then?

I can neither lie nor understate the truth. My fastball was my "meat & potatoes" pitch. Yes, I had a wicked curve ball, and what was (then) called a "drop" of equal proportions. And, a changeup.

Now, back to the big guys, many of them the heroes of my youth.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by BFrank

I think Goodie would like to see Felix Rodriguez' name on this list, too.

Oh...I don't even think so.

sheesh.

BTW...did you see when he came in relief for the Phillies against the GIANTS with two outs and promptly walked the first batter, gave up a run scoring double before getting the last out?

What a loser.

Originally Posted by BFrank

Meanwhile, here are a few Koufax stats. Hard to argue the numbers.

SEASON TEAM---W L ERA G GS CG SHO SV SVO IP H R ER HR HBP BB SO
1961 LA Dodgers 18 13 3.52 42 35 15 2 1 --- 255.2 212 117 100 27 3 96 269
1962 LA Dodgers 14 7 2.54 28 26 11 2 1 --- 184.1 134 61 52 13 2 57 216
1963 LA Dodgers 25 5 1.88 40 40 20 11 0 --- 311.0 214 68 65 18 3 58 306
1964 LA Dodgers 19 5 1.74 29 28 15 7 1 --- 223.0 154 49 43 13 0 53 223
1965 LA Dodgers 26 8 2.04 43 41 27 8 2 --- 335.2 216 90 76 26 5 71 382
1966 LA Dodgers 27 9 1.73 41 41 27 5 0 --- 323.0 241 74 62 19 0 77 317

[hard to line up the stats corrrectly, but you get the idea]

Kofax was a great pitcher. No doubt about it, BFrank.

Problem is...he only played pro-ball for 12 years.

Nolan Ryan pitched 26 years.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Koufax in his prime was the best in my lifetime. I have no way of comparing him to Cy Young or Walter Johnson.


One of the greatest natural talents I ever saw had his career totally screwed up by Charlie Dressen. The story's told at length in 'Boys Of Summer' (which suggested that Dressen's techniques physically wrecked Joe's arm) -- here's a short account.

>>After beginning his career in the Negro Leagues, Black won Rookie of the Year honors as a 28-year-old reliever for the 1952 Dodgers. He won 14 in relief and added 15 saves, using a blazing fastball and tight curve.

At season's end, Dodger manager Chuck Dressen started him twice (a win and a loss) to prepare him for starting the first game of the World Series. Black won 4-2, but then lost two close games (also starts) 2-0 and 4-2. His victory was the only one by a black pitcher in the Series until Mudcat Grant won in 1965.

In spring training the next year, Dressen insisted that Black learn several new pitches. He lost control of the two that had brought him success and was never effective again.<<

[Jon Abbey]

the best single year I think I ever saw from a pitcher was Dwight Gooden in 1985. 24-4 with 8 shutouts, 16 complete games, 268 Ks, and a 1.53 ERA, and he was only 20 years old at the time, unanimous Cy Young award winner.

[Ron Thorne]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

Kofax was a great pitcher. No doubt about it, BFrank.

Problem is...he only played pro-ball for 12 years.

Nolan Ryan pitched 26 years.

12 years as a multiple-threat pitcher at the highest level in the world is a "problem"? I'm thinkin' that Sandy Koufax's coaches and teammates might just disagree with you. Further, it's not as if Sandy wanted to resign. DUH.

I'll allow the following to speak for itself and me on this issue.

"With his lifetime record of 165-87, 2.76 ERA and 2,396 strikeouts in 2,324 1/3 innings, in 1972 he became, at 36, the youngest player voted into the Hall of Fame."

[BFrank]

Definitely ranks up there with Sandy's '65 and '66 seasons.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by walto

No Hank Aguirre??

Hank Aguirre was known as the worst hitting pitcher when he was playing. One season, though, he went 1-2, with his hit being a triple. APBA baseball took such things literally so when I played APBA it at my friends house and put Aguirre in to pitch in relief, I generally made a double switch so that Aguirre would have to bat in the next inning.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

the best single year I think I ever saw from a pitcher was Dwight Gooden in 1985. 24-4 with 8 shutouts, 16 complete games, 268 Ks, and a 1.53 ERA, and he was only 20 years old at the time, unanimous Cy Young award winner.

Not only that, but he only gave up four unearned runs the entire season. I watched almost every Met game that year. I agree with you.

Why did Mel Stottlemyre have to mess with the talent, getting Gooden to switch to a cut fastball the very next season?

More importantly, the Mets organization let him throw too many pitches at ages 18-20 and Gooden also abused his body with drugs.

[stonemonkts]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

the best single year I think I ever saw from a pitcher was Dwight Gooden in 1985. 24-4 with 8 shutouts, 16 complete games, 268 Ks, and a 1.53 ERA, and he was only 20 years old at the time, unanimous Cy Young award winner.

Yeah I was a very active Mets fan in those years. I was touting Gooden as having "best ever" potential. Beautiful form. Too bad he succumbed to deviant urges.

What about Guidry's 25-3 year? I'm no Yanks fan but that was perhaps even more impressive, no?