My band of the "underrated"

[Bluebrew]

Harold Land - tenor
Bill Hardman - trumpet
Dave Schildkraut - alto
Britt Woodman - trombone
George Wallington - piano
Billy Bauer - guitar
Curtis Counce - bass
Art Taylor - drums.

There are many others of course but these are a few of my favorites. This is the ultimate "neo-bop" group. How about you guys? Any ideas? I only used pretty standard horns but that's just me.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Bluebrew

Harold Land - tenor
Bill Hardman - trumpet
Dave Schildkraut - alto
Britt Woodman - trombone
George Wallington - piano
Billy Bauer - guitar
Curtis Counce - bass
Art Taylor - drums.

How much did Schildkraut record?

Do you know the 3 stellar solo albums Wallington did after his comeback in the 80s?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Bluebrew

Harold Land - tenor
Bill Hardman - trumpet
Dave Schildkraut - alto
Britt Woodman - trombone
George Wallington - piano
Billy Bauer - guitar
Curtis Counce - bass
Art Taylor - drums.

How much did Schildkraut record?

Do you know the 3 stellar solo albums Wallington did after his comeback in the 80s?

[Steve Reynolds]

Mats Gustafsson - saxophones
Barry Guy - bass
Paul Lovens - drums


Mouth Eating Trees and Related Activities

good excuse to mention a great album and 3 of my favorite musicians

good excuse to write: Mouth Eating Trees and Related Activities


like the way it sounds - I'm about to go on a Mats kick after listening to that wild duo disc with Nilssen-Love on drums

and Bluebrew - I'm not completely insane

Aren't Guy and Lovens kind of established figures?

And even if Gustaffson's place in the pantheon isn't yet secure, probably due to his age, I don't think he's "underrated" in any real sense of the term.

[Pete C]

Reynolds thinks that guys who get the props they deserve in out circles should be household names in inside circles.

[Gordon B]

Living players

Mike Osborne- alto
Trevor Watts- tenor
Raphe Malik- trumpet
Irene Schweizer- piano
Andy McKee - bass
Billy Drummond- drums

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

Living players

Mike Osborne- alto
Trevor Watts- tenor
Raphe Malik- trumpet
Irene Schweizer- piano
Andy McKee - bass
Billy Drummond- drums

You think that would be a good band?

[Bluebrew]

Originally Posted by Pete C

How much did Schildkraut record?

Do you know the 3 stellar solo albums Wallington did after his comeback in the 80s?

That I know of, Schildkraut's only recordings other than some big band solos are the ones with Miles. But just those Miles recordings show a young man with so much promise. He died young but I forgot how. Do you remember?

I have not heard those Wallington solo albums. Can you give me the names of them? Thanks.

[stonemonkts]

Schildkraut's page at AMG shows he recorded mainly with Stan Kenton, Quincy Jones, Tony Bennet, Tito Puente, and Miles.

[crawjo]

Daniel Carter - Tenor Saxophone
Raphe Malik - Trumpet
Anthony Davis - Piano
Mark Helias - Bass
Hamid Drake - Drums (I know Drake is highly regarded, but IMO, he's not highly regarded enough.)

Originally Posted by crawjo

(I know Drake is highly regarded, but IMO, he's not highly regarded enough.)

Aw man, it sucks whenever a thread with a specific purpose degenerates into people pushing their favorites.

crawjo, Hamid Drake is not only highly regarded, he's almost overexposed, and I say that as someone who loves Hamid Drake's drumming.

The truth is, I think those of us (I'm including myself here) who are relative amateurs when it comes to the music should not attempt to engage too actively in threads like this. To do so intelligently usually requires an extensive knowledge of sidemen and the sides they've played on, and a broad knowledge of critical consensus in order to truly assess whether or not somebody merits the label "underrated."

Otherwise, it turns into people just pushing their personal favs, and let's face it, from a personal perspective, everybody's favorites don't receive enough recognition.

I'm not trying to pick on Steve or crawjo, both of whom I really do respect. I know there's a hint of elitist sentiment behind what I'm saying, but I assure you I don't include myself amongst the "elite."

[Jesse]

Qua?

[Steve Reynolds]

Drake - overexposed to the poeple who listen to him - sure! I buy that

go to the other jazz sites - most people still don;t know who he is

and I threw up Guy & Lovens without even thinking - of course we think they are long established players

ask 99 out of 100 people who post at allaboutjazz who Barry Guy or Paul Lovens is

ask a downbeat or jazz times reader

hey - hamid just got voted new star in some magazine, I'm sure

Harold Kand - damn - he's on Clifford Brown records - in the scheme of jazz - that is a HUNFRED times more "rated" than Hamid Drake

short story - before I lost my job - met a guy who was a huge jazz fan - talked about it- he had just started to work there when I was on mediacl leave - said he had 7000 LP's and/or Cd's

pretty soon I found out almost all dead guys - he didn't know who Fred Anderson or Hamid Drake was

and then I asked him about Roscoe Mitchell and Julius Hemphill - he didn't know who they were!

I used to meet these guys all the time at a formerly semi-famous record shop in Montclair, NJ - even the name of somepone like Oliver Lake (a local no less) would evokes howls of fear - he's one of those "outside" guys, right?

this place spoils us

more concerned with his 34 Cannonball dates

bottom line is that he is a historical jazz fan - which is what most jazz fans still are.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Pete C

You think that would be a good band?

A great bassist or drummer whould be adaptable to any great jazz band. Actually, I'm going to make a revision.

Mike Osborne- alto
Trevor Watts- tenor
Raphe Malik- trumpet
Walter Weirbos- Trombone
Irene Schweizer- piano
John Lindberg - bass
Gerry Hemingway- drums

I dare you to say these musicians couldn't play together.

[Tanager]

Well, I'll agree that Hamid Drake, like many so-called "outside" musicians (if that term really means anything), may be underexposed, but reading posts about him around here is like reading a succession of mini-hagiographies. So there's no way I buy him being underrated, which is NOT the same thing as underexposed, IMHO.

[Jesse]

Great fucking band!
Are you familiar w/Wierbos in the Maarten Altena context? The Claxon dates?

[crawjo]

First of all, I find the suggestion that I or anyone else should not participate in this thread to be absurd. Second of all, I've been here for ten months, and I have rarely seen anyone say anything about Hamid Drake. In fact, I rarely see anyone say anything about ANYONE, because nobody talks about jazz on this board. Which is why it was so nice to see somebody come in and discourage people from participating in an actual jazz thread that did start.

Oh, and I didn't write a "hagiography" to Drake. I just said he was underrated. In the Downbeat poll of jazz critics, he was voted a "rising star" this year (or maybe it was last year.) If the so-called experts think Drake is new on the scene, then he's underrated.

[graypencil]

heres a nice mainstream list from just the Pacitic NW:

Tpt: Jay Thomas / Paul Mazzio
Ten: Jim Coile /Travis Ranney /Hans Teuber
Alto: Mark Taylor ( not the NY one )/Bill Ramsay
Bone: Dan Marcus /Jeff Hay
Piano: John Hansen /Marc Seales /Dave Peck/Jarry Fuller/ Randy Halberstadt
Bass: Chuck Deardorf /Dave Captien / Clipper Anderson /Doug Miller /Jeff Johnson
Drums: Gary Hobbs /John Bishop /Matt Jorgensen

betcha most of these names are "unknown " here ..

Steve,

I hear ya, man. I actually think the future of the music, from a consumption and concert attendance point of view, is in the hands of people who aren't "established Jazz fans."

Every single time I've taken non-Jazz afficionados to a show featuring Hamid Drake, or Ernst Reijseger, or the ICP Orchestra, or 8 Bold Souls, or whatever supposedly "out" player you want to name, they've absolutely loved it, and these have usually been close friends and casual friends who were more fans of rock or european classical music. So I think to a large extent, openness to the more adventurous sounds, including non-jazz improv and eai, may be easier to find with people who aren't already carrying a load of prejudices.

That said, when we're speaking of the more knowledgeable parts of the critical establishment, whether that be guys like Kevin Whitehead or Bert Noglik or Art Lange or Ted Gioia or whoever, most of the out cats we give props to on JC are already part of the pantheon, critically speaking.

Whether or not they actually sell a ton of CDs to people who'd rather just collect every single 50s Blue Note date is another issue entirely. But none of these cats is "underrated."

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Oh, and I didn't write a "hagiography" to Drake. I just said he was underrated. In the Downbeat poll of jazz critics, he was voted a "rising star" this year (or maybe it was last year.) If the so-called experts think Drake is new on the scene, then he's underrated.

Ease up there, sparky, noone said you did. But there have been a lot of posts about Drake, maybe not ones you've seen, maybe not since you've been here, and yes, he *almost* without exception gets high praise, and no, I'm not saying he doesn't deserve it.

Second, the fact that Downbeat voters think he's new on the scene has nothing to do with being underrated, which is, as I said, not the same thing as undernoticed. Among those who follow the part of the jazz scene in which Drake is a participant, and I think we'd probably all agree that's largely outside those parts usually covered by Downbeat, Drake is anything but underrated - he seems to be almost universally admired as perhaps *the* AG drummer/percussionist.

[crawjo]

My revised band. I would like to see THIS band play together:

Wynton Marsalis - Trumpet
David S. Ware - Tenor Saxophone
Kenny G - Soprano Saxophone
Cecil Taylor - Piano
Dave Holland - Acoustic Bass
Tim Barnes - Drums and Percussion
Cassandra Wilson - Vocals
Nakamura - No Input Mixing Board

The music that they play will be a 124-page chart written out by Anthony Braxton, which none of them will have seen until 30 minutes before showtime. Braxton conducts.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by Ed the Happy Clown

I hear ya, man. I actually think the future of the music, from a consumption and concert attendance point of view, is in the hands of people who aren't "established Jazz fans."

I think that's at least partly right. This comes up from time to time on threads, and I don't think I'm alone in largely agreeing with you.

That said, when we're speaking of the more knowledgeable parts of the critical establishment, whether that be guys like Kevin Whitehead or Bert Noglik or Art Lange or Ted Gioia or whoever, most of the out cats we give props to on JC are already part of the pantheon, critically speaking.

Ted Gioia? I read his The History of Jazz, and he barely made reference to anything even remotely recent. Does he actually notice out/ag players? That's the only thing of his I've read, so perhaps my sample size is too small, but I found it a major, major failing of a book entitled The History of Jazz (my emphasis).

[crawjo]

Okay, another list. Underrated by JazzCorner folks:

Wynton Marsalis - Trumpet
Matthew Shipp - Piano
Henry Grimes - Acoustic Bass (yuk yuk)
Guillermo Brown - Drums and Percussion
Aleta Hayes - Vocals

EDIT: I don't even like Marsalis's music that much, but there's no way he's as bad as people here claim he is.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by crawjo

My revised band. I would like to see THIS band play together:

Wynton Marsalis - Trumpet
David S. Ware - Tenor Saxophone
Kenny G - Soprano Saxophone
Cecil Taylor - Piano
Dave Holland - Acoustic Bass
Tim Barnes - Drums and Percussion
Cassandra Wilson - Vocals
Nakamura - No Input Mixing Board

The music that they play will be a 124-page chart written out by Anthony Braxton, which none of them will have seen until 30 minutes before showtime. Braxton conducts.

I was going to ask if you were serious about Wynton until I noticed Kenny G. If you'd put Kenny Garrett, I'd have thought you really *were* serious.

[Steve Reynolds]

good point, Ed

you're right - traditional jazz fans are usually the ones that are all bound up with the concern that they might hear a screaming saxophone or a drummer that doesn't sound just like Philly Joe or Billy Higgins

OTOH - people who know I'm a "jazz" fan either think it is that boring shit that the PBS guy with the tie plays (Wynton) or else they hear a snippet of Brotz or Misha and they think I'm listening to some wacked out looney music.

I know all abou the audience factor/demographic - I've been to a few vision fests (not always even the best example as it has it's share of people who saw Albert Ayler & John Coltrane live) and there is a new audience - and unlike the "jazz fans" - the collectors of all the old records - the guy I worked with was a classic example - they havn't been brainwashed into thinking that one must listen to every note that every dead person played before moving on to current musicians - and of course the current musicians they should listen to must have had to listen to every note made by every dead person before being worthy to play the music of the above dead people.

by this point nobody is playing music of their own, how could they be, their spending so much time with dead people, they have died themselves and don't even know it.






blood and guts, baby

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Tanager

Ted Gioia? I read his The History of Jazz, and he barely made reference to anything even remotely recent. Does he actually notice out/ag players?

a few months ago he sent me some money and asked me to pick out some Erstwhiles for him, I'd never talked to him before that (or since), FWIW...

[Steve Reynolds]

crawjo:

Brown is underrated, my ass

seen the Ware band with Susie, and I've seen it with that clown - no longer a band - is there a drummer on "Surrendered"?

I don't hear one

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by crawjo

EDIT: I don't even like Marsalis's music that much, but there's no way he's as bad as people here claim he is.

Agree 100%, although when people can get past the flames and silliness, I think he gets more props than one would imagine. He put some pretty excellent records in days of yore.

[Captain Hate]

Somebody who was very unappreciated on piano and drums: Erroll Parker