If They Had Lived…?

[Richardo Caerleoni]

IF THEY HAD LIVED…?

OK, not being morbid, and they all achieved true brilliance in their lifetimes…and it is impossible to say…BUT, if, say Fats Narvarro, Clifford Brown, Booker Little, Eric Dolphy, Scot La Faro, (add your own) had lived longer…would they have changed the music still further?

Would we now be saying, Hey, Clifford's or Booker’s classic quintet - instead of Miles?

[sonic1]

I think you would have to take this one artist at a time. But you mentioned some of my favorite jazz musicians. Man LaFaro was such a great bassist, one of my favorite. And I don't know that he ever got his own recording date, which is really really sad.

ANd Dolphy. One could only imagine. Clifford Brown was so great, and does not get the acclaim that say Dolphy gets, but he might have created his own branch of avant-garde. He seemed to be hinting at some exciting places in his time, places which were locked away from us forever when he died (in a car accident right?)/

We can only dream about what these guys would have done.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

After he chose to stay in Europe, Dolphy had a few gigs but then died suddenly from a diabetic coma at the age of 36, a major loss.

[Bluebrew]

One has to be 99% sure that had Clifford Brown live longer he would have certainly evolved into an even more incredible genius. At 26 he was at least 5 years away from total maturation. It seems to me that most player so not totally solidify their style until the reach their thirties for the most part. But as everyone above has inffered, "who really know?".

[AntManBee]

Had Coltrane lived, I think he might had withdrawn from music, accepting rather than being frustrated by the limits of his musical search. I think he would have reached silence.

If Miles had been active now, I think he would have taken hiphop to places it doesn't even dream of now.

[sonic1]

Coltranes huge output often makes me forget he died young too.

I disagree that he would have stopped. In fact, he already had taken a short hiatus; he may have taken another short hiatus, but he was so passionate about music. I think he would have inserted more structure, perhaps might have leaned in the Braxton direction a little. But he had already brought so much music down to earth for us it is hard to imagine a mortal man bring much more down.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

After he chose to stay in Europe, Dolphy had a few gigs but then died suddenly from a diabetic coma at the age of 36, a major loss.

Dennis - Totally agree...I saw Dolphy (with endless patience) try to get a Swedish trio to to play "The Way you look tonight" with him...until they all gradually fell to pieces one by one...totally lost...It was both funny and tragic...

And that's my point...If he had come back to the States (or rather was able), would he have continued to grow, given the musical company and respect he had? I think YES.

Don Byas (different generation) said he stayed in Europe far too long. Dexter said there was no one to play with...except when Griffin was in Copenhagen....


But my point...and I accept it's impossible to answer...would say, Booker Little have equalled Miles's work, if not more, if he had lived ?

Just speculation.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

But my point...and I accept it's impossible to answer...would say, Booker Little have equalled Miles's work, if not more, if he had lived ?

Just speculation.

I think Booker Little was a superior player to Miles already. Miles was a great band leader, but inferior to Little in technique. Miles is a great player, but not in even the top 5 in my book. He was great at getting people together. I don't even think Miles was a great composer, Shorter had all the best tunes in the Davis books.

Davis had his eas to the ground and was part of every innovation in Jazz, but he was not the originator of those ideas. He was great at being in the right place at the right time around the right people. And for that he was a great, making some of the best albums in jazz history.

But Little was a great player period. I am not so sure of his compositional skills as he did not live long enough to prove them. But undoubtful in my top 5 trumpet players.

[AntManBee]

Originally Posted by sonic1

Coltranes huge output often makes me forget he died young too.

That's very true! In his short time, he achieved more than most people do in a longer lifetime.

Originally Posted by sonic1

I disagree that he would have stopped. In fact, he already had taken a short hiatus; he may have taken another short hiatus, but he was so passionate about music.

Yes, I thought of that too. Then again, just because his passion was so strong, maybe he would have reached a point where the only consequence would have been to give it up for a search on another level; continuing his spiritual search away from music. Then again, we can never know.


Had Bill Evans lived, maybe he would have found that way to play the C note that makes people break down that Jan Johansson was looking for.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Originally Posted by sonic1

Coltranes huge output often makes me forget he died young too.

I disagree that he would have stopped. In fact, he already had taken a short hiatus; he may have taken another short hiatus, but he was so passionate about music. I think he would have inserted more structure, perhaps might have leaned in the Braxton direction a little. But he had already brought so much music down to earth for us it is hard to imagine a mortal man bring much more down.

Sonic1... Intersteller Space...I think one of the CLASSIC albums was already heading elsewhere....Trane had told Charlie Mariano he had nothing new left to play...yet the night before Int Space he had dinner with Ravi S. ...and with only five months left to live he produced a masterpiece.

I think Trane was "cleaning" his approach" - wrong word...but maybe refining will do? After being thro so much and often too much "cluter" with frankly lesser musicians...I think this was a way ahead...But maybe I'm a romantic!

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

Sonic1... Intersteller Space...I think one of the CLASSIC albums was already heading elsewhere....Trane had told Charlie Mariano he had nothing new left to play...yet the night before Int Space he had dinner with Ravi S. ...and with only five months left to live he produced a masterpiece.

I think Trane was "cleaning" his approach" - wrong word...but maybe refining will do? After being thro so much and often too much "cluter" with frankly lesser musicians...I think this was a way ahead...But maybe I'm a romantic!

No, I think I agree with this. I think also that the players he had with him influenced his playing and as he changed his rhythm section he would have morphed. We can only imagine though. Yes, he might have tired of Rashied et al, and gone to someone else, perhaps toward the new chicago scene??

Or maybe AMB is correct and he might have gone toward spiritual pursuits.

[Bluebrew]

Richardo, IMO romatics are as important to art as are "old farts".

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Originally Posted by AntManBee

Had Bill Evans lived, maybe he would have found that way to play the C note that makes people break down that Jan Johansson was looking for.

STILL A GREAT QUOTE!

[AntManBee]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

STILL A GREAT QUOTE!

And somehow appropriate to Bill Evans at his best IMO.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by sonic1

Clifford Brown was so great, and does not get the acclaim that say Dolphy gets,

Are you kidding? As far as I know there are no Clifford Brown controversies. In the critical, fan and musician communities he's consistently acknowledged as one of the undisputed, essential, major voices on trumpet. Dolphy, still, is much more controversial.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by sonic1

Or maybe AMB is correct and he might have gone toward spiritual pursuits.

To me, the Olatunji Concert and Kulu Se Mama imply the possibility that he was going in a more overtly pan-African & world music approach--perhaps similar directions to some of Shepp & Pharoah's projects post-Trane-mortem.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by AntManBee

If Miles had been active now, I think he would have taken hiphop to places it doesn't even dream of now.

If Doo Bop is any indication, I doubt it.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

Dexter said there was no one to play with...except when Griffin was in Copenhagen....

Kenny Drew, NHOP & Tootie Heath (or Alex Riel) were nobodies?

I seem to be on a contrarian streak.

Who? Me?

[Uli]

If Ayler was still around, the world would be a better place.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Are you kidding? As far as I know there are no Clifford Brown controversies. In the critical, fan and musician communities he's consistently acknowledged as one of the undisputed, essential, major voices on trumpet. Dolphy, still, is much more controversial.

Being controversial has nothing to do with being considered great. When people list the major innovators of Jazz music, I have seen Dolphy listed on that list (next to Armstrong, Bird, Coltrane, Davis, et al), although not on everyone's list. I have never seen Brown on those lists. I would not necessarily rate Dolphy as high as Trane, but as a major contributor to innovation he was undoubtably, whether or not you liked that innovation. John Coltrane was more controversial than Brown too. I would argue that lacking controversey is more of a point against you than for.

Brown was an incredible player, and one of my favorites. But I don't know how much of an innovator he was. I would even argue that Dolphy was much more technically skilled, and on more than one instrument. He was proficient on alto sax, bass clarinet and flute. But they are hard to compare since they both played different subgenres on different instruments.

[Pete C]

I didn't realize this was a discussion of innovation per se.

Dolphy was a very enigmatic player, and in terms of widespread influence, Brownie was extremely more historically important.

My thoughts on this matter are purely historical & analytical, and have nothing to do with my own preferences.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Originally Posted by Pete C

To me, the Olatunji Concert and Kulu Se Mama imply the possibility that he was going in a more overtly pan-African & world music approach--perhaps similar directions to some of Shepp & Pharoah's projects post-Trane-mortem.

Pete - Which went where? The Olatunji Concert was a tribute to Trane's final stamina (and all credit - amazing) , but God forbid, not in the immediate direction of Shepp or Saunders work? ...and just where did they end up? Playing standards - badly? And please, no "World music".

OK, I'm the romantic! I think he would have "paired down" and consolidated. - but again there were other influences (Alice plus strings/symps etc.)

Hey, who knows?

I like the quote to Jimmy Garrison when the latter stormed off stage at dropping point...another 3 hours of M. Fav Things... "Jimmy, I'm sorry, but this is the way I play ?"...

Whatever else, Trane had total honesty and commitment.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

not in the immediate direction of Shepp or Saunders work? ...and just where did they end up? Playing standards - badly? And please, no "World music".

I was referring to albums like Shepp's Magic of Juju, and Pharoah's Deaf, Dumb, and Blind, which came shortly after Trane died; I was not referring to the ultimate directions they took.

I don't know what YOU mean by "world music," but Trane was always incorporating "non-Western" influences, and I think it might have been further reflected by the use of more instrumentation and rhythms from outside the "jazz" world.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Pete C

My thoughts on this matter are purely historical & analytical, and have nothing to do with my own preferences.

Hmmm...

You sure about that? I think a lot of people would not agree with this. Dolphy was incredibly influential, and even influenced Coltrane. I have never heard that Brown had any significant influence on coltrane. Dolphy influenced alto sax players, he influenced theory teachers (George Russell), he influenced a whole new generation of players and was a co-progenitor of the avant-garde, and is listed among the greatest musicians in jazz. Brown, while influential on trumpet players, and undoubtedly a great player, did not have such a wide spreading influence.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

- but again there were other influences (Alice plus strings/symps etc.)

Those things that Alice did to Trane's recordings were done when he was well beyond the ability to approve them (i.e., six feet under). I'm not sure he would have gone for those treatments, except for the fact that he did seem to have an implicit trust in Alice.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I don't know what YOU mean by "world music," but Trane was always incorporating "non-Western" influences, and I think it might have been further reflected by the use of more instrumentation and rhythms from outside the "jazz" world.

The 70s saw a lot of world music/jazz fusion, and I think trane would have gone somewhat in that direction but maybe with his own take, a little less tackiness maybe.

I agree Trane probably would have gone more in the direction of "world music". He was extremely fond of world music, his whole tonal concept being based on several world influences (Indian and African ragas, oriental scales, etc).

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Kenny Drew, NHOP & Tootie Heath (or Alex Riel) were nobodies?

I seem to be on a contrarian streak.

Who? Me?

Pete - Yes Agree... It totally surprised me too...When he (Dexter) was challenged about having the best section in Europe (which was a joy) , his response was "yes, but there is "no real challenge"...i.e other tenor players. Ok, this was towards his stay in Denmark...but there was a wonderful story of him, Griff and I think Ben Webser getting into an argument over who was better - Basie or Ellington...in a cafe and nearly wrecking the place. He needed that company.

[Pete C]

I'll be interested in other folks' take on the Brownie-Dolphy dichotomy--granted only a limited dichotomy, purely related to the thread at hand.

At any rate, my original response was to the claim that Brown does not get the acclaim that Dolphy does.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by sonic1

I am not so sure of [Booker Little's] compositional skills as he did not live long enough to prove them.

Once again, I disagree. His last 2 albums are ample evidence that he was truly one of the most original compositional voices in jazz, on par with Grachan Moncur III as far as forging new directions for small group compositon-based jazz in generally "avant" contexts.

[stonemonkts]

My take on the Dolphy-Brown dichotomy is they were both influential but in very different ways. Brown influenced an entire generation of trumpeters to strive for his sound and technical skills, while Dolphy's influences were more compositional and in terms of musical approach (Hutcherson, Moncur III, Rivers, Simmons, Braxton, et. al. were directly influenced by Dolphy's conceptions, and so was the aforementioned Booker Little).

Dolphy evolved much further musically in his short career than Brown did, but of course Brown had fewer years on the scene. But based on what Brown was doing at the time of his death, as wonderful as the music was both he and his band(s) were playing, it was certainly not innovative or a stretch of any musical boundary per se.

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about this stuff as many others here. These are simply my impressions as a fan.