Free Improvisation...

[SilentKnowledge]

Many people regard free improvisation noise, randomness, & if it is loud improv, they would consider it wanking. I also heard one person comment that a trained monkey could perform the same "noise" & they would not consider it music.

For me, I enjoy free improvisation.

What is your take on these comments members?

Thanks

Regards,

Alexander

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by SilentKnowledge

What is your take on these comments members?

They're total fucking nonsense.

Yes, there is *some* amount of alea/chance/randomness to some improvisations - that's a good thing.

If a trained monkey could play this stuff, I'd like to hear that monkey!

The wanking thing seemed a lot more prevalent in jazz boards back in the mid 90's - you don't hear it as much anymore, and if you do it's usually a specific, not general comment.

[crawjo]

...like Walto saying that Henry Grimes was no better than I would be if someone handed me a bass and amplified me.

With free improv, I don't ever find myself questioning the skill behind what I am hearing. With some improv players, though, I will say that the music seems to fly by so fast, or seems so random that it is hard for me to connect with the music on an emotional or spiritual level. In other words, some improvisation just doesn't move me. Which is perfectly fine, because that's part of the bargain with free improv. The musician is always walking a tightrope, taking risks. Sometimes it won't work. I do think that sometimes fans of established free improv musicians deny this aspect of the music, and end up praising stuff that they otherwise wouldn't care for if somebody else's name was attached to it. Okay, actually what I mean by that last sentence is that sometimes I do those things. In other words, if it's Cecil Taylor, it has to be great, etc. etc. But it can't always be great. If it was always great, then it wouldn't be such a daring, noble undertaking.

[sonic1]

All I have to say to that is WHO CARES WHAT THEY THINK?

If you like the music and it moves you, then keep digging it. We don't need permission to love this music. When people say shit like that to me these days, I just tell them they are right, and let them live in their own deprived headspace.

I have at times argued the validity of the music, but these days I would rather use my time talking to people who really love the music. You can tell if someone is really open or not, and if you think they are you might spend some time on them. But wasting time on people who will never get it anyway seems self defeating to me, and not worth it.

So just love your music, and don't let anyone poison you with their ignorance.
You don't need their permission.

Jared

[hearsay]

I now play in a band that plays mostly free, although with some relation to composition. I find that compared to playing tunes or more complex pieces with strict structures, I myself (and I think the others too) tend to listen, interact, pace ourselves and communicate far more.

I don't know anything about trained monkeys improvising, but I've heard some elephants play some beautiful improvisations.

[Gary Sisco]

I'm with Jared in attitude, except I long ago just stopped spinning music for people I knew weren't going to dig it, and I'd rather spend the time that might have been spent debating music's worth listening to the music I want to hear. Let others do the same. People dig what they dig, or not. It's not my affair. I'd rather search out the people with similar tastes than try to get people into music they're not going to like, regardless. I'm not an evangelist. Let the dead bury the dead. All that.

[Frisco]

Shows how far we've progressed with our attitudes since the 60's. There was actually a period of time in the mid 70's that Public Radio in Detroit embraced this music and prided themselves on playing music like Art Ensemble of Chicago in the middle of the day instead of hiding it late night. Thirty years later they've all but done away with it. With these prevailing attitudes, how much inspiration will young potential improvisers and modern composers have to pursue music with artistic merit? I guess that it's up to us, as current devotees and musicians to pass it along to the younger generation.

[Nate Dorward]

Monkeys are underrated. As is wanking.

[Pete C]

... This all seems quite old hat, now that 4 year olds are getting emailed videos of wanking monkeys and men running their heads into an elephant's fanny. ...
www.playgroundlaw.com/cgi-bin/browse.pl?pid=143 - 24k - Cached - Similar pages

[walto]

...like Walto saying that Henry Grimes was no better than I would be if someone handed me a bass and amplified me.

Cool out of context quotation--particularly the ambiguous "was no better" (without saying when). You should consider politics!

With free improv, I don't ever find myself questioning the skill behind what I am hearing.

OTOH, I'd advise against becoming a music critic.

[frankiepop]

really, everybody around here anymore is blow-hard fucking - 'I AM THE GREATEST OF ALLLL TIIIME!' - jazz critic. it has become apparent to me that even my fucking dog, hermit, could be a fucking jazz critic. i am thinking about becoming a fucking jazz critic too. full-time in fact. frankiepop the fucking jazz critic. the greatest fucking jazz critic of alllll tiiime! why dont u guys discuss this over at the bagtellan or whatever the hell you call that blowitoutyourass site...

[frankiepop]

ps i took off about a week...had a nice weekend here for the most part, even got my first wink from lois. bakatcha! my point is i am back on focus going for the hated posted honor again. move over uli, youre not even in my league you boner.

[GodSpeliZed]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

Monkeys are underrated. As is wanking.

Charlton Heston would surely agree!!

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by frankiepop

i am thinking about becoming a fucking jazz critic too.

Sounds like a premise for some very limited interest porn flicks.

[walto]

it has become apparent to me that even my fucking dog, hermit, could be a fucking jazz critic.

Sure, but I think even Hermit should question the skill behind what he's hearing occasionally. "This guy's another woofulous player!" gets old, even from Hermit.

[Nate Dorward]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Sounds like a premise for some very limited interest porn flicks.

You never know. Phil Freeman would know if there's a market for this kind of thing.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by frankiepop

really, everybody around here anymore is blow-hard fucking - 'I AM THE GREATEST OF ALLLL TIIIME!' - jazz critic. it has become apparent to me that even my fucking dog, hermit, could be a fucking jazz critic. i am thinking about becoming a fucking jazz critic too. full-time in fact. frankiepop the fucking jazz critic. the greatest fucking jazz critic of alllll tiiime! why dont u guys discuss this over at the bagtellan or whatever the hell you call that blowitoutyourass site...

You know bro, we are all the fucking authority on everything....

but honestly I learn from debating this shit out sometimes.

[SilentKnowledge]

Thank you for your elaboration members!

Originally Posted by crawjo

With free improv, I don't ever find myself questioning the skill behind what I am hearing.

Hmmmmmmm.........

Well, I will say that I do. Even though I'm not a musician.

But, of course, that always leads to me wondering if the music itself is bad, or the musician who is playing it has little or no skills whenever I hear shit that I don't like.

[Dr Dave]

Like anything else, it all depends on who is doing the improvising. When you get three or four or five players who are expert on their instruments, know each other, and who have their ears on, then free playing can be a mighty fine thing.

As you can tell, I think free improvisation is the culmination of the art of jazz, not a place for beginners--not even a place for journeymen.

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

As you can tell, I think free improvisation is the culmination of the art of jazz, not a place for beginners--not even a place for journeymen.

I'm with you 100%, Finch.

[Gary Sisco]

And yet, the growing part of free improv's base, and there is one, is comprised of ... young people. And new young musicians are coming up all the time. Our own Nat Catchpole being an example among many.

[frankiepop]

You know bro, we are all the fucking authority on everything....

but honestly I learn from debating this shit out sometimes.

im not agst discussion or debate....i jus' kinda sick of all the 'look at me please look look...clk here and read ME,...er i mean my (fukn boring) revu'

[frankiepop]

they cant even post it here..u got traipse all around cyber space to rd them...cuz there soooooooooo important...........................

[Derek Taylor]

Originally Posted by frankiepop

frankiepop the fucking jazz critic. the greatest fucking jazz critic of alllll tiiime! why dont u guys discuss this over at the bagtellan or whatever the hell you call that blowitoutyourass site...

So sorry you’re feeling left out, Frankie. The Bagatellen bullpen would be lucky to have someone of your f*cking critical stature on its roster. Especially since you seem to take us far more seriously than we take ourselves. We’re expecting momentous things from your membership. Official quill, papyrus, ascot and woodgrain name placard are in the cyber mail, dude.

[frankiepop]

i dont take u seriously

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by frankiepop

im not agst discussion or debate....i jus' kinda sick of all the 'look at me please look look...clk here and read ME,...er i mean my (fukn boring) revu'

Yeah I agree with THAT! I never thought I would ever need to block anyone, but I have been contemplating it lately because of the needless ego bullshit. I mean, Goodie posted a whole thread on why people aren't paying enough attention to him.

[frankiepop]

yea but that turned into a classic thread....

[Derek Taylor]

Originally Posted by frankiepop

i dont take u seriously

When it comes to your rantings here, the feeling's mutual

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

And yet, the growing part of free improv's base, and there is one, is comprised of ... young people. And new young musicians are coming up all the time. Our own Nat Catchpole being an example among many.

Hey, I'm all for it. My personal tastes run more toward age and treachery than youth and enthusiasm, that's all.