Top Piano Players (by genre)

[sonic1]

Please tell me who you think are the top piano players for each subgenre of Jazz:

1. Early (pre-swing) Piano
2. Swing
3. Bop/1950s
4. Hard Bop
5. Avant-garde/Free
6. EFI/EAI
7. Post Bop/ECM
8. Individual/Unclassifyable

and tell me who is your favorite out of all of them.

I suggest making your choices of those who are balanced at being technically skilled, great improvisors, innovative and influential.

My choices:

1. Jelly Roll Morton (Scott Joplin am tempted to pick but I have not really heard him playing his own music).
2. Count Basie or Teddy Wilson
3. Monk
4. McCoy Tyner
5. Andrew Hill/Cecil Taylor (can't decide between them)
6. Schlippenbach
7. Keith Jarrett
8. Art Tatum, Tristano

Out of all of these guys my favorite is a toss up between Art Tatum and Lennie Tristano. Schlippy is high in my regard too. It seems too obvious to choose Tyner or a lot of other guys I could have mentioned.

I don't like piano in EAI so that eliminates those guys for me.

[Sergio Zamora]

1. Fats Waller
2. Count Basie
3. Thelonious Monk
4. Sonny Clark
5. Cecil Taylor
6. efi=Schlippenbach, eai=John Tilbury
7. Paul Bley
8. Horace Tapscott

[Derek Taylor]

1.) James P. Johnson
2.) Earl Hines
3.) Thelonious Monk
4.) Horace Silver
5.) Ran Blake
6.) Irene Schweizer
7.) Jaki Byard [though he probably fits better in the category below w/ Tatum]
8.) Art Tatum

[stonemonkts]

Oh boy another list!

1. James P. Johnson
2. Teddy Wilson
3. Monk
4. Horace Parlan
5. Cecil Taylor
6. Irene Schweizer
7. Paul Bley
8. Abdullah Ibrahim

I could've easily named Schlippenbach over Schweizer, or pre-1970 Hancock over Parlan, or Randy Weston and Don Pullen over Ibrahim.

I guess I would've preferred choosing three names for each genre. Favorites change over time, of course. Those in boldface are set in stone.

[Pete C]

Outside of the Jazztet, I never would consider Tyner hard bop.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Outside of the Jazztet, I never would consider Tyner hard bop.

What about Inception? (In general, though, I tend to agree.)

[Bluebrew]

Art Tatum
Teddy Wilson
Bud Powell
Lennie Tristano - I just had to add the "cool school".
Monk - bopper but I put him in the 60's because of his innovative style.
Cecil Taylor
Keirth Jarrett

Others worth mention - Tommy Flannagan, Red Garland, George Wallington, Hampton Hawes, Russ Freeman - ah this could go on and on like the Energizer bunny.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Outside of the Jazztet, I never would consider Tyner hard bop.

What would you consider him?? Even his avant-garde workings with trane were very hard boppish. I have not heard his more recent stuff, but I would guess he might have gone toward a more post bop sound if not sticking to Hard Bop.

I would be hard pressed to call him anything but hard bop from what I have heard. I have "The Real McCoy", "Expansions", "Tender Moments" with people like Joe Henderson, Lee Morgan, Elvin Jones, Ron Carter, Woody Shaw, Gary Bartz, Wayne Shorter, Joe Chambers....what the hell else would this be than Hard Bop?

...I just looked him up in the all music guide and they list him as Hard Bop/Post Bop. I assume his more recent stuff is more post bop. But when I list him here I am thinking of his work throughout the 60s.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by sonic1

What would you consider him?? Even his avant-garde workings with trane were very hard boppish. I have not heard his more recent stuff, but I would guess he might have gone toward a more post bop sound if not sticking to Hard Bop.

I would be hard pressed to call him anything but hard bop from what I have heard. I have "The Real McCoy", "Expansions", "Tender Moments" with people like Joe Henderson, Lee Morgan, Elvin Jones, Ron Carter, Woody Shaw, Gary Bartz, Wayne Shorter, Joe Chambers....what the hell else would this be than Hard Bop?

...I just looked him up in the all music guide and they list him as Hard Bop/Post Bop. I assume his more recent stuff is more post bop. But when I list him here I am thinking of his work throughout the 60s.

His extended modalism and pentatonic improvisation and constantly thundering touch, along with a near-total lack of funk in his 60s playing, to my ears, sets him very much from the pianists who bring to mind "hard bop" for me, players like Cedar Walton and Horace Silver. And I wouldn't cite playing with a free-thinking composer like Joe Chambers as support for being hard bop - same for several other players in the list you cite.

[Tanager]

As an aside, discussions such as this do point the IMHO great futility in trying to assign musicians of the post-bop era to neat categories (by post-bop, I mean "after bop," not any sort of style normally labelled "post-bop").

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Tanager

His extended modalism and pentatonic improvisation and constantly thundering touch, along with a near-total lack of funk in his 60s playing, to my ears, sets him very much from the pianists who bring to mind "hard bop" for me, players like Cedar Walton and Horace Silver. And I wouldn't cite playing with a free-thinking composer like Joe Chambers as support for being hard bop - same for several other players in the list you cite.

well lash me then...

I did not know I was going to be held to maintaining such strict taxonomic designations. You still haven't told me what he is playing. I know what you mean. Yes, he uses a lot of modal stuctures, block chords (lack of funk, I don't think I totally agree with), but what my dear would you call him then. Certainly he is not so out there as to defy designation.

and honey, hows about a list of pianists from you. Might help to know where you are coming from.

*************EDIT***************

I've been listening to some of the albums I mentioned and you are right, he really does use modal structures quite a lot, though not always. But I wouldn't put him in the Miles modal category since the music is more upbeat and his phrasing totally different than those guys in Miles' outfits.

Maybe it's modal-bop?

I also neglected to mention Mal Waldron and Bill Evans, both of whom I think are important. There are a lot of pianists and it is really hard to narrow down a few.

And how can I omit Fatha' Hines???

[crawjo]

1. Earl Hines
2. Count Basie
3. Thelonious Monk
4. Red Garland
5. Cecil Taylor
6. John Tilbury
7. Marilyn Crispell
8. Sun Ra

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Tanager

As an aside, discussions such as this do point the IMHO great futility in trying to assign musicians of the post-bop era to neat categories (by post-bop, I mean "after bop," not any sort of style normally labelled "post-bop").

I think there is a shift that takes place, though I agree the parameters of it are very murky. I think of Lee Morgan as more or less staying within the hard bop tradition, while Wayne Shorter is more post-bop. To me, "post-bop" means a music that is rooted in the bop language, but that also pushes into "free" jazz without quite getting there. It's all very foggy, of course. Futile, perhaps, but still worthy of discussion. After all, where would we be without categories!

[sonic1]

Then there is the whole ECM sound...how would you categorize that? I admit I am not totally sure of what post bop really is.

The categories are not all that important, except when you want to talk about a musician and describe the music.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by sonic1

and tell me who is your favorite out of all of them.

I suggest making your choices of those who are balanced at being technically skilled, great improvisors, innovative and influential.

Hold the phone. First you ask people to tell you who their favorites are, but then you tell them how they should determine who those "favorites" are?

[sonic1]

Ah, I meant to be clear about what criteria I was using. But hey, fire away bro. Use whatever criteria works for you. I am not going to tell you who to like. I did sort of confuse a "best of" list with a "favorite" list. But I was hoping to get a "best of" list that was beyond the usual list of greats.

You have been really bitchy lately Pete. Don't get your panties all in a bunch, eh? Nit-pickey and all...

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by sonic1

You have been really bitchy lately Pete. Don't get your panties all in a bunch, eh? Nit-pickey and all...

Lately? Pete is a professional picker of nits.

[crawjo]

Oh, forgot to list my favorite, which is Cecil Taylor. But I also love Monk, Crispell, and Ra.

[stonemonkts]

I have to go with Monk as my favorite, followed by Bley.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Lately? Pete is a professional picker of nits.

Well then his avatar fits him well I guess. I thought for a moment I was judging him by his cover, but when the cover fits...

[sonic1]

I want to mention father hines again. I am listening to "piano man" and I have to say he tears it up! Does anyone have any other suggestions for Earl Hines? Something more recent than Piano Man! What were his later recordings like?

[stonemonkts]

This little box is wonderful:



Also, from 1972 "Tour de Force" (Black Lion)

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by sonic1

You have been really bitchy lately Pete. Don't get your panties all in a bunch, eh? Nit-pickey and all...

Being a pain in the ass is in my blood. I'm from Brooklyn, after all.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I think there is a shift that takes place, though I agree the parameters of it are very murky. I think of Lee Morgan as more or less staying within the hard bop tradition, while Wayne Shorter is more post-bop. To me, "post-bop" means a music that is rooted in the bop language, but that also pushes into "free" jazz without quite getting there. It's all very foggy, of course. Futile, perhaps, but still worthy of discussion. After all, where would we be without categories!

I don't disagree (and I'd largely agree with your take on 60s post-bop, and I'd apply to a lot of players other than Shorter)- I just mean to note that, once you get beyond Bop (or maybe Hard Bop, although surely Lee's Search for the New Land goes beyond Hard Bop), it's hard to say, "X is a Y type of player." Keith Jarrett? Not a pure bop player, but he can play the living hell out of some bop. Not a pure free/AG player, but his free(er) stuff, especially the free trio stuff, is some of my favorite in his ouvre. And I think you could say the same of a lot of players. Not all of them, but a healthy number, and I think that's a Good Thing (tm) in general.

Jared, man, why do you get irritated when I disagree with you? This isn't the first time, and it won't be the last, that you and I see things differently. Tone down the indignation, I have not a thing at all against you personally, nor do I against anyone else with whose musical viewpoint I differ. It doesn't make you wrong and me right, it just means I have a different viewpoint.

Tyner is one of those guys who, like Jarrett, is hard to categorize to me. If you absolutely had to categorize his 60s output, "modal bop" would be fine by me. I just don't think he's that easy to categorize, because to my ears, he had then a highly individualistic (for his time) approach and sound, one which pushed beyond the hard bop label, albeit perhaps not so much as Andrew Hill, for example. I know of at least one uncharitable description of him as the "pentatonic Oscar Peterson" - I don't agree with that, necessarily, but it does imply something beyond funky gospel inflected guys like Silver. I haven't listened to much of his 80s/90s work, so I really can't comment on it at all.

[Pete C]

I consider Tyner a post-bop player who has developed neo-traditionalist leanings.

[Tanager]

Okay, in any case, since, as I said, I have a heard time plugging players into categories after Hard Bop, and my knowledge of swing players isn't really great enough to bother showing off my ignorance, here are a couple for me:

Bop: Bud Powell (I know Monk is the popular pick, and while I love Monk, Powell's playing resonates with me more, and I think that as a player, rather than as a composer, he left a bigger impression on other players of his day and after)

Hard Bop: Horace Silver - he's not the greatest technician (although he's got his moments), he doesn't play a lot of notes, but as an accompanist, bandleader, and composer, he pretty much defines "hard bop" for me. I have (and love) most of his solo sides up through Cape Verdean Blues, and some days, you just gotta hear some Silver. Funkilicious. His quoting "Joshua Fought (Fit) the Battle of Jericho" (unless my ears deceive me) in "A Night in Tunisia" gives me a thrill every time I hear it.

Post Bop (by which I mean, 1970s on, not any particular style, really): Jarrett, for the reasons I cited above. He can play just about anything and do it well, he's led a great trio for years (and his American quartet of the 70s was outstanding). Second place to, hell, I dunno, maybe Paul Bley.

Unclassifiable: this, to me, encompasses most of the great post-1970 players. One highly individual player, though, who to me deserves a lot of mention, is Ahmad Jamal. He's very recognizable, he has explored several styles, he's a model of economy (the anti-Oscar Peterson, if you will), and he's never been a slave to musical fads. I really, really love his playing, and I don't think he's dropped off at all. I missed seeing him live a couple of years ago, and I'm still kicking myself.

[Pete C]

I had no idea what efi was, but based on some of the responses of the cognoscenti, I'm assuming it stands for European Free Improv.

[Pete C]

Here's my swing at Jared's list:

1. Early (pre-swing) Piano

Earl Hines, who remained timeless until his death.

2. Swing

Teddy Wilson.

3. Bop/1950s

Bud Powell, no contest as the undisputed master. I don't consider Monk a bop pianist. I have a number of favorites who I wouldn't necessarily consider "important," "influential," etc., like Russ Freeman.

4. Hard Bop

Wynton Kelly

5. Avant-garde/Free

Cecil Taylor, Dave Burrell (though he could go into 8)

6. EFI/EAI

No real preferences; not enough familiarity. Where does Mengelberg fit?

7. Post Bop/ECM

Tyner

8. Individual/Unclassifyable

Paul Bley, Monk, Bill Evans (he doesn't exactly fit in any of the above).

Where does Mal Waldron fit--4, 5, 7 or 8?

[stonemonkts]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Where does Mal Waldron fit--4, 5, 7 or 8?

I would say 8.

[Pete C]

Waldron is one of my favorite pianists, but I'm not sure he'd pass the "balanced at being technically skilled, great improvisors, innovative and influential" test.