Is Coltrane the most influential jazz musician?

[BlueMiles]

I'm just wondering if there is even a debate about this. Coltrane remains such an admired and influential artist after all these years. Unlike Armstrong (or even Bird), he does not seem dated in the least. Every jazz musician (and especially the saxophonists) cite him as prime inspiration. It's not just the pure sound, but also the drive, the intensity, the questing element, the spiritual core.

We have seen many explicit tributes in recent years--David Murray, John McLaughlin, Kenny Garrett, Karrin Allyson. It never stops. Artists love to get together with Tyner and (until recently) Jones, making that Trane connection just a bit tighter.

We have the Saxophone Summit album--Lovano, Brecker, and Liebman. They all owe a debt to Trane; they all work through various elements of his music.

We all know there are the slavish imitators. But the unique voices are there too. For instance, I've heard Lovano perform "Lonnie's Lament as a jaunty number, while his new album features (almost beyond belief) the scocrching "Countdown" as a ballad.

Your thoughts on Trane--who might very well be called the "almighty."

[Pete C]

It's pointless to say "most influential," as influence is a historical chain.

[clinthopson]

I guess if that means allowing players to go on for endless, self-indulgent solos, he wins.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Pete C

It's pointless to say "most influential," as influence is a historical chain.

I'm not joking when I say I have no idea what this means.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

I guess if that means allowing players to go on for endless, self-indulgent solos, he wins.

Clint, the Sardinian restaurant we're going to on Friday serves fig cookies. Don't order them. If they happen to be moldy, that would constitute cannibalism.

Originally Posted by mke

I'm not joking when I say I have no idea what this means.

Think ancestry(in a Jazz sense), MKE.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by mke

I'm not joking when I say I have no idea what this means.

If what Trane became is dependent on Bird, Dexter, Earl Bostic, John Gilmore, Albert Ayler, etc, and they are dependent on Hawk, Tatum, etc., then any "most influential" musician is a house of cards.

[GodSpeliZed]

I can't answer directly to the question, anyway JC was my 1st meeting with jazz (A Love Supreme). I believe I've already wrote how much knock me 'Olatunji Concert'. I think I can understand what Pete says. Many times I've read about musicians devoted to Coltrane as far as beign unable to develop a personal style. Not Coltrane's fault, anyway, but what Pete affirmed is true in every kind of music (and not in music only, tho I have no problems with history....).
I was hit by what Miles Davis wrote about JC in his autobiography (and many others confirmed, in a way or another).... Miles describes John as a 'cat' ever playing, even when Miles himself and the others were jamboreeing after a performance. I had in my mind the image of a man who, thanks to the music, stopped with drugs and felt grateful to 'God' for the gift he made to him. I imagine also a very simple and nice human being, but with a hurricane in his heart (... too romantic? I know, it's only a part of the story, maybe the less significant, but so it goes....). When I listen to "My Favorite things" (on 'Olatunji') I hear a man that opens his Pandora's Box with no fear, and with an incredible urge and intensity..... something incredible if never listen.
Besides, Coltrane teached to me, in a way that is incontrovertible, that a musician can explore all his emotions without filter or mask, and that those feeling comes right into your face and blend themselves to the yours. After that, it's your turn to work. Ant this is not a chain, is a legacy.

Sincerely your (always from the outer space)
GodSpeliZed

[frankiepop]

i think that i hear more coltraned than just about anybody in music in the last 30-40 yrs in jazz. coltrane changed sound and form dramatically. he was a major influence and blueprint to a lot of music that followed.


i dont think anybody had quite the effect of coltrane since the 60s. there were those that came before during and after coltrane so he is not the only force of change, but i think he pretty clearly is the major source of change. he also may be the more persuasive voice. how many times have i read articles about a 60s jazz radical and the name coltrane arises? the answer is a lot.

[clinthopson]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Clint, the Sardinian restaurant we're going to on Friday serves fig cookies. Don't order them. If they happen to be moldy, that would constitute cannibalism.

And I'm proud of it!

[BlueMiles]

Yes, influence is a tricky thing. Trane obviously learned a lot from those who went before him. But he and Miles seem to be the last musicians that are universal icons. Several generations have now looked up to them (and especially Trane) with awe. He is a huge jazz "spirit."

The tributes alone bespeak of how Trane continues to have a huge impact. Again, it's not just Trane's music and repertoire. Musicians seem to find him a role model in terms of character, attitude, and creativity.

[Bluebrew]

I still think that if anyone gets this honor it is still Bird. I don't think I have to elaborate.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Pete C

If what Trane became is dependent on Bird, Dexter, Earl Bostic, John Gilmore, Albert Ayler, etc, and they are dependent on Hawk, Tatum, etc., then any "most influential" musician is a house of cards.

Not necessarily. Theoretically, if thoroughly unknown musician A influences only musician B, but musician B goes on to influence musicians C, D, E and F, then one could consider B more influential than A, even if A was essential in the make-up of B. Of course, this is a very simplified model.

Originally Posted by BlueMiles

The tributes alone bespeak of how Trane continues to have a huge impact. Again, it's not just Trane's music and repertoire. Musicians seem to find him a role model in terms of character,...

You mean being an unfaithful alcoholic?

[sonic1]

Oh scott, Trane was a nice man.

I think he is trememdously influential ON SAX PLAYERS. Too influential. There are too many trane-heads out there!

[Bluebrew]

Originally Posted by sonic1

Oh scott, Trane was a nice man.

I think he is trememdously influential ON SAX PLAYERS. Too influential. There are too many trane-heads out there!

I agree with that. Too many people try to sound like Trane. I'd like to see more young players go down Rollins' street. Do you think it is the age of obvious roaring technique that we live in? Hey, silence is music too. Not just that "sheets of sounds" approach. When Rollin's and Trane did "Tenor Madness" I leaned, and still do, towards Rollins. It's just personal opinion but I have always preferred the lyricism of Rollins to that of Trane. I really like Trane more during the "Quintet" period than later but again it's just personal opinion.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Bluebrew

When Rollin's and Trane did Tenor Madness" I leaned, and still do, towards Rollins.

I'd agree that Rollins is more "together" than Coltrane on that track, but the rest of the album is kind of boring, so what does that say of Coltrane's participation?

[Bluebrew]

Originally Posted by mke

I'd agree that Rollins is more "together" than Coltrane on that track, but the rest of the album is kind of boring, so what does that say of Coltrane's participation?

You absolutely right. Again the nail has been hit upon the head and that's probably why, on a lot of the reissues, many of those tracks are left out. Just my .02c.

[Cem]

Coltrane is definitely the holiest figure in jazz, because he was the first to touch the listener in a way previously unfamiliar. Folks were already into his playing, then like the Pied Piper, he took them to a completely new place...different currency than Miles. This is a fact, not opinion. I think, aside from influencing players with his style of playing and opening musical doors, his most profound influence on players and listeners is his approach, his philosophy...music as a life force......time to shut up...getting too flakey...

Originally Posted by Chris A

A big influence, for sure, but not the influence. I don't think that credit can rightfully be given to any single musicians. Think of what Armstrong and Parker did, for example.

Absolutely. Or Duke, Tatum, Hawkins, Young, etc..................

Ok, I'll just go ahead and say it.

Bird was the biggest influence.

Thread complete.

I mean, c'mon, otherwise sane and rational folks started shooting heroin because they would try anything to play like him.

[BlueMiles]

OK, plenty of interesting responses--some humorous, some dead serious.

I guess I'm just trying to make the point that for an awful lot of fans and musicans Trane simply looms large--sort of like a dark sun. Some of us slip into a fuzzy mysticism over Coltrane, but that's one part of why his presence is go great.

And forget the actual facts of Trane's life--his mythic quality is huge.

And then too, the continuing influence is seen not merely in sax players, but in guitarists, singers, everyone.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by Bluebrew

I still think that if anyone gets this honor it is still Bird. I don't think I have to elaborate.

I don't think everyone necessarily understands that statement, so please elaborate.

[Jon Abbey]

amazing, 24 posts in this thread so far, and not even a tangential mention of Ellington.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Absolutely. Or Duke, Tatum, Hawkins, Young, etc..................

That's tangential, imho.

[john williams]

This is the second thread today I haven't got!

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Uli

That's tangential, imho.

ah, sorry, I only searched for Ellington. plus I have Scott's posts blocked currently...

Originally Posted by Uli

That's tangential, imho.

Thank you, Uli.

Abbey, fuck you. (of course, he won't ever see that )

[John L]

I would say that Armstrong, Bird, and Coltrane were probably the three most influential jazz musicians. It is hard to choose one of the three as most influential. If I had to choose, I would probably have to say Armstrong, if for no other reason than what he did paved the way for everything else. Armstrong's influence went well beyond jazz as well.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Bluebrew

You absolutely right. Again the nail has been hit upon the head and that's probably why, on a lot of the reissues, many of those tracks are left out. Just my .02c.

Do I detect sarcasm here?