Jazz and Politics - Oil & Water

[Lois Gilbert]

"Music and Politics = Oil and Water?"

The Jazz Journalists Association's Jazz Matters panel discussions for fall
'04 begin Wednesday, October 13, asking: Can/does music reflect politics? Affect political decisions? Change anyone's mind? Is ALL music political -- and if so, left or right? How have the big musical/political tours been launched, and what has been the audience's reaction? Do they suggest the shape of things to come? If politics and music mix, how best to report about that for music magazines, general interest publications, radio? You say there'll be a revolution
. . . ?

Panelists include: Tuli Kupferberg, renown Fugs poet/provocateur; Dennis
Mitcheltree, tenor saxophonist-composer, impetus behind the American Music Group, who performs a politically-inspired program with his trio at Greenwich House on Thurs, Oct. 28; Sue Mingus, moving force behind the Mingus Big Band, plus a surprise musician; JJA member Nate Chinen, JazzTimes columnist ("The Gig"); Jennifer Toomey, of the Future Music coalition producing Concerts for Kerry, and a conservatively oriented jazz musician and/or journalist, if we can find any (volunteers: contact Hman@jazzhouse.org; your views *will* be respected).

Where: Performance Space, New School Jazz performance space, 55 W. 13th St.,
5th floor
When: Wednesday, Oct. 13, 2004; 6-8 p.m.
Ticket Price: Free

[Lois Gilbert]

I thought I would post this in Spekout rather than in news and hopefully stimulate some of our own discussion

[crawjo]

I've thought about starting a similar thread. Sounds like an interesting panel. To my mind, jazz and politics are not "oil and water." I think a lot of great art is inherently political without being overtly so...just by challenging the accepted conventions of your time your music can encroach on political issues, change people's mindsets.

Since I started listening to jazz, I've found myself moving in a leftward direction politically. The one may have nothing to do with the other, I don't know.

I do know that I am usually turned off by musicians' "political rants." I think if you allow the music itself its own space, you will give the listener an opportunity to change their attitudes toward life in general, including politics.

[shrugs]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I do know that I am usually turned off by musicians' "political rants." I think if you allow the music itself its own space, you will give the listener an opportunity to change their attitudes toward life in general, including politics.

The '04 Vision Fest shows I attended were hampered by this IMO. Roy Campbell enlightened the audience with his notion that Bush was waiting until October to catch Osama. Lose the crappy diatribes, poetry and the rest of the group-hug bs and get back to jazz.

[Gentle Giant]

Take the politics out of Archie Shepp's music and it just ain't no "fire music" no more.

Just like Woody Guthrie's guitar bore a sign that said "This machine kills fascists," I prefer when the politics are part of the performance rather than spouted between songs or on awards shows.

Max Roach, Don Byron, lotta cats integrate their political views in the context of their music. Nothing wrong with that, so long as the music holds up.

[groover]

A lot of jazz, like other forms of popular music, is simply trying to please it's audience, not enlighten or energize them politically. However, even in that mode, jazz itself certainly did a lot to improve race relations, if only by creating an environment where different types of people could communicate, interact and find common ground as human beings.

Though much of the lyrical content of traditional jazz deals with personal statements about romance, there's also a tradition of social comment going back at least as far as Billie Holiday's "Strange Fruit", and certainly including Mingus' "Fables of Faubus". Free jazz also sprang up during the era of civil rights crusades, representing a desire to seek the greatest degree of freedom available within the music itself.

[Enforcer]

I don't like being lectured while I'm listening to music, whether I agree with the artist or not. It's one thing when an artist creates a piece of art that is inherently political. It's another when some self-important blowhard decides to spend time on stage telling me what he thinks about political issues while I'm sitting there 30 or 40 bucks more broke than I was before I bought my ticket, expecting to hear the music and not the speech.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I guess it depends whether I agree with the artists' politics.

Was "Strange Fruit" political?

Max Roach's "We Insist! Freedom Now" sure got my ass fired up. Coleman Hawkins' solo on 'Driva Man? Come on.

I think what happens most of the time is that a politcal movement adopts an artform rather than the other way around. The free jazz movement of the '60s got kind of locked in with the Civil Rights movement, but I don't feel that the Civil Rights movement was the catalyst for the music.

Some cats don't like having their entertainment mixed in with messages. Doesn't bother me. Sometimes it gives mere entertainment more power.

But then I'm a '60s throw back. I like it churned up a bit. It certainly is more entertaining than the largely apolitical culture we've got going now.

[HenryMc]

RANTING

Jazz IS Politics, Man, from the blasts of Buddy Bolden in the humid Nawlins air , saying Im down baby but Im not gone to the Lincoln Centre Ork, Jazz is political.

From Satch's explosion in the 20's - a radical music, soundtrack for the age, hot, sweet and optimistic, Jazz has both reflected, commentated and been an agent for change. Its roots in the poetic blues, the struggle of man, the black man primarily and his beliefs in a better day coming, it both reminds and uplifts.

The Jazzman has always commented on the world around him. He has played music to God (in all his shapes). He has reflected the sadness and struggles of addiction and drug use. Thats politics baby.

In the forties, Lester played DB Blues, about his stint in the army. Be-Bop reflected the agitation and movement of the post war. Cool Bop sountdracked a million seductions and a million cocktails, the sound of a country confident growing, and hip, you dig. In the fifties there was the struggle against Jim Crow, and the disillusioning of a generation of Jazzers, changing names and religion. Then the 60's, a radicalised geration, angry, inflected their music with ..what? fire ! Fire Music !. A Generation contending with war and the new poverty of America, a slip in values. A poverty that became too real in the economic slowdowns following the 'oil shocks'. Some of the hardest political music ever heard came barrelling out of the 60's and 70's.

Could we have had a Wynton if not for the Greed is Good decade of the eighties? Is his inherrent conservatism a reflection of the age?

While the angry rhymes of RAP has stolen some of Jazz's political fire, Jazz has still got it. It's in its history, its evolution, its (to paraphrase tom joad somewhat) wherever cats with horns gather and blow, wherever a cat puts on some Rahsaan , or some Duke, or Bird. Its in the wind outside every small jazz club and its there, always, eternal, Jazz, rooted in the blues, documenting a struggle, and just being.

[sonic1]

I think some jazz is political some is not. Some is not intentionally political but it becomes politicized (Like Coltrane). Jazz is art and art is subject to being politicized or not. Depending both on the audience and the artist.

Personally I prefer my art seperate from politics, but also realize that sometimes my own ears have hikacked and politicized my aesthetics (sp?) unbeknownst to me. I accept that. I am sure my current love for the dark output of Keiji Haino (not exactly jazz) has something to do with that.

We probably can't help but doing that sometimes. But I would suggest also that much jazz has NOTHING to do with politics. And certainly many listeners don't INTEND on being political about their music, even if as I mentioned above, the influence sneaks in.

And since these are very political times, many of us who avoid politics have found ourselves drowning in it! Certainly I have been almost apolitical for many many years until recently.

Jared

[JazzJunkie]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

I don't like being lectured while I'm listening to music, whether I agree with the artist or not. It's one thing when an artist creates a piece of art that is inherently political. It's another when some self-important blowhard decides to spend time on stage telling me what he thinks about political issues while I'm sitting there 30 or 40 bucks more broke than I was before I bought my ticket, expecting to hear the music and not the speech.

This pretty much expresses my feelings. Altho, I would add that if the intent of the event is political then that's a different story. In fact, I think expectations, or what is acceptable set-time-behavior, at least for me, generally boils down to "intent of event." I wouldn't want to hear political musings at a Jazz event any more than I would want to see a demonstration of arc welding.

[Dr Dave]

"Compared To What?" is lousy political jazz.
"Strange Fruit" is powerful political jazz.
"Attica Blues" is powerful political jazz.
"Alabama" is powerful political jazz.
I have mixed feelings about Charlie Haden's various "political" recordings.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Since I started listening to jazz, I've found myself moving in a leftward direction politically. The one may have nothing to do with the other, I don't know.

Maybe you've moved leftward because you post frequently at the Alley. You seem more content when you contribute to the strong anti-Bush sentiment here than when you argue your Alley unpopular positions on abortion and embryonic stem cell research.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

Maybe you've moved leftward because you post frequently at the Alley. You seem more content when you contribute to the strong anti-Bush sentiment here than when you argue your Alley unpopular positions on abortion and embryonic stem cell research.

I don't think that's a fair assessment, Gordon. I've pushed both the abortion and stem cell issues to the limit on numerous occasions, and taken a hell of a lot of heat for it. My alliance with Bush was always an uneasy one, and he has had an absolutely miserable year this year. The war has gone very badly, with numerous mishaps and scandals. He introduced, (to my surprise, I might add), the odious FMA constitutional amendment, to which I am rigidly opposed. For me to continue to support him would require me to violate my principles.

I have mixed it up with others in the Alley as much as anyone, if not more. There is no doubt that my views are in a state of transition, that I grant, but to suggest that I have adopted my views to become more accepted at JazzCorner is just silliness.

[john williams]

I never thought Crawjo's noticeable leftward shift was due to Alley 'peer pressure'.

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by crawjo

to suggest that I have adopted my views to become more accepted at JazzCorner is just silliness.

On the other hand... it may not be quite so silly to imply that the money I've been sending to you, attached to notes "hinting" that you should change political views solely to provide me with entertainment, could have something to do with it.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I don't think that's a fair assessment, Gordon.

You've stopped thinking about your kids again, Gordon. It's gonna backfire.

Signed - Your "Naive" Friend

(Remember that, Gordon?)

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

On the other hand... it may not be quite so silly to imply that the money I've been sending to you, attached to notes "hinting" that you should change political views solely to provide me with entertainment, could have something to do with it.

Oh my!!!!

Crawjo, word to the wise. Don't fuck with Nagel.

If he says jump, you ask "on who"?

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

You've stopped thinking about your kids again, Gordon. It's gonna backfire.

Signed - Your "Naive" Friend

(Remember that, Gordon?)

Oh MY!!!!!!

I'm almost sure that when Ma started this thread she had no idea it would get as chippy as it has.

Gordon, I've seen pics of Mr. Gonzalez.

Proceed with caution!

Originally Posted by crawjo

My alliance with Bush was always an uneasy one, and he has had an absolutely miserable year this year.

David,

I could not agree with you more. What you have stated here perfectly sums up my own feelings.

BUT, I do have to say that my own political leanings have changed drastically towards the right throughout my Jazz listening days.

For me it had less to do with the music I enjoy and more to do with the birth of my son.

And for all of you assholes that are looking for a deeper explanation, eat me.

Oh, did I say "eat me"?

I meant to say "ask me".

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

For me it had less to do with the music I enjoy and more to do with the birth of my son.

I know you'll always do the best for him.

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

I know you'll always do the best for him.

The invitation still stands, Dennis.

You and your boys need to get yer asses up this way!!

And don't give me no shit!



I know your wife has kin in the bootheel, but next time I'm expecting to hear from you.

Goddamn bro, we've got a 5 bedroom house! Plenty of room for everyone. I may even be willing to forgive you for your past transgressions and allow you to drink with me on my deck!



You know I'm just talking shit. Man, we'd love to have you up this way. Mid MO could use a major shot in the arm!

[crawjo]

In all seriousness, Scott, I'm interested to know why the birth of your son has caused you to move to the right.

My daughter just turned one year old this past weekend, and I honestly don't think her arrival has affected my politics one way or the other.

Also, about my leftward move...what's been changing more for me in the past couple of years has been my views on social and economic issues. I'm much more liberal, perhaps even radical, in some of those areas than I used to be. This is probably more based on my own reading and thinking than anything else. In the past year alone I've done a lot of reading on socialism and labor unions. Right now I'm reading a biography of Eugene Debs. This type of stuff has influenced my thinking. I also think that some of my jazz listening has affected my outlook on the world. I've listened to a lot of free jazz and free improvisation in the past year, and there is a general political outlook to a lot of what I listen to, even if it's more implied than overtly stated.

My reasoning for supporting the war has not changed at all. What has changed is that I've seen how badly things have gone there, and I hold Bush and his administration responsible for much of the chaos. At the same time, I am opposed to abortion and stem cell research, so in that sense I'm to the right. Which is, I guess, a perfect example of why the whole left/right thing is much too simplistic. I don't think any of us are purely one or the other. We take different stances on different issues, and then project something that people perceive as either being to the left or to the right.

Larry, the checks have been much appreciated. One question though: why do they keep bouncing?

Dennis, I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to with Gordon, but it sounds like fun!

Gordon, give me some credit. I still despise Michael Moore.

[crawjo]

This discussion reminds me of a phone conversation I had with my cousin about a year ago. I was going off on one of my animal-rights rants, and he interrupted me and said, "How the hell can someone like you support Bush?"

It was a good question.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by crawjo

My daughter just turned one year old this past weekend, and I honestly don't think her arrival has affected my politics one way or the other.

If she were of warrior age, like my 2 boys are, you'd hopefully make a move to protect her...and you'd start seeing the world of politics differently. How the politicians change our world will start making you think differently because you know it's seriously going to affect your little girl.

My friend Scott went one way and I went another, and lots for us is based on our children. I've understood that that child comes first in his life and his beliefs. I respect that.

Dennis, I have absolutely no idea what you are referring to with Gordon, but it sounds like fun!

Yeah, I mention his personal slam ever so often without naming him. I just decided I would mention it again, with his name attached. We talked kids one time and the effect his ideas would have on them. He'd started off the whole thing by calling me naive just because his ideas and my ideas didn't mesh.

I'm just picking on him...after all, this is about jazz/jazzers and their politics, and most people know where I stand. Remember my 2-second rant about my song "Bush Medicine" at Tonic? "If you are suffering from a cold, you take cold medicine. If you are suffering from Bush, you take Bush Medicine." I was told that a couple of the audience members didn't appreciate that. But the song swung!

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

The invitation still stands, Dennis.

You and your boys need to get yer asses up this way!!

I know your wife has kin in the bootheel, but next time I'm expecting to hear from you.

Goddamn bro, we've got a 5 bedroom house! Plenty of room for everyone. I may even be willing to forgive you for your past transgressions and allow you to drink with me on my deck!

I mentioned in a post on my thread that supposedly we were going to play in Lawrence, KS soon, but I can't get anyone in Central MO to sponsor us. I'm working on it, as are my boys. Thanks again for the invite.

[Jon Abbey]

I agree that politics and music rarely mix well, at least overtly (there's certainly a subtext in the music on Duos for Doris, for instance, but I could also see never knowing/noticing that and enjoying the music just as much). but this specific election in the US is too important, so I'm willing to make exceptions.

I bought one of these t-shirts on the street today, the black one:

http://www.disarmbushtshirts.com/products.html

[crawjo]

Dennis,

As far as children and politics go, I think we all want our children to grow up in a better world than the one we live in. We have different ways of seeing how that world will come about, or how to protect our children from the world, but still, I don't think that my being a father will change the way I look at politics. I've always felt that it is important to see things from someone else's perspective, and not just out of my own self-interest. Having a daughter just reinforces that belief. When there's a war, there are a lot of sons and daughters who are going to be killed. If you support that war, you'd better have a good reason for doing so, because war means people die, and when people die those who live suffer from their absence. In fact, it is because Bush has so mangled the current situation that I feel I have to vote against him. As someone who initially supported the war and still believes there were very good reasons for going to war, I honestly cannot understand how anyone can continue to support this president. Vote for him because you think Kerry will be worse, I can sort of see that. But support him? You'd have to have your head in the sand.

[Gary Sisco]

Music isn't political unless one already knows the intent (as in, say, program music in classical music). Musicians may or may not be, but, being individual humans, one can't generalize about their politics based on the kind of music they play.

Nice to see Tuli still hanging in there at 80 (I think, or pretty close). Good for him.

Fug Bush!