Some questions on modern recording techniques

[Bluebrew]

I am recording a new record of Flamenco guitar solos and a few vocals accompanying my daughter who was here from Madrid for two weeks. I've done a lot of recording in my life but now I am faced with a new challenge or perhaps dilemma. I wonder if anyone has some ideas. Here is where I am at:

I have always recorded a tune. If it didn't work out to everyones satisfaction you just did another take, of the whole thing. Now I am working with a young and very talented sound tech who gets a really great sound for the idiom I am working in. However she has me doing a tune then if there´s something we don't like we just do that bit over and with this editting machine you just sort of cut and paste. This is all new to me and in a way I look at it as "cheating". Everyone says I am wrong to think that but old ways die hard.

Flamenco is not jazz but it has many things in comon with it. It is much less closer to "pure" inprovization than jazz but still contains many of the elemts. I can't see that rerecording a four bar passage in jazz is beificial so I don't see it in flamenco either.

Maybe some one can give me a few ideas, no matter how abstract the may be, about how to deal with this "cut and paste" form of recording.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Cut and paste has been around since there was tape to cut and splice. Digitally done, it can be a flawless procedure. Go for it.

[graypencil]

I finished recording my first CD utilizing totally tapeless technology last year .. and after some 35 plus years of recording on tape ( from 2 track up thru 48 track ), I'll never go back!

I just finished a second tapeless project (with less than ideal players ) and I was amazed at what we were able to fix in post production ..

The things that can be accomplished using these new tools far exceed what could be done with manual tape splicing, and the tapeless medium actually takes the pressure off the performer to some extent.

like Dennis sez: Try it ..you'lll like it!

[Bluebrew]

Thanks guys. I will dutifully apply this approach the best I can and make another step forward out if my technical atrophy and doggedness to old habits.

[Jeff Albert]

It all depends on your goal. If your goal is to capture a specific performance, then I understand your misgivings about modern editing capabilities. If your goal is to make the best recording possible, and you can view the recorded product as a singular entity, instead of a reflection of a specific performance, then you owe it to yourself and the final product to use whatever technology is available to make the best recording.

[Enforcer]

I have a question on this for some of the more studio equipment savvy cats. I saw Jazzooo post something on the Ashley Simpson thread about the way vocals can be manipulated. That's not news to me. But I do wonder about what kind of technology is typically used, if any, to clean up rhythmic imperfections on recordings. Assuming a live drummer is used, is it uncommon for a producer to fix any changes in tempo or inaccuracy in the phrasing? If so, how is it done?

For some time now, it seems that the industry continues to turn out more and more near flawless performances from rhythm sections on record. Now, when it's a bunch of studio cats playing the stuff, it makes sense. They are ultrarefined and what they play lays very even and sounds good on tape. But I hear even garage bands play drum parts that sound like a studio drummer played them. The meter is nearly perfect and the tightness with the other musicians is spot on. I assume the drum tracks are being recorded separately on all these recordings, since that's the standard for today's methods. But still, there was a time when many rock drummers simply didn't have the time or technique to play like that on record, and now it seems commonplace.

Have the drummers and the rest of the musicians gotten that much better over time, or is there a common studio technique I don't know about to clean the imperfections up?

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Over on the Organissimo board, there is a thread that was carried over from the old Blue Note bulletin board called "Conversations With Jim Anderson" where Jim graciously answers all kinds of questions like this. Maybe someone can convince him to come over here as well?

Later,
Kevin

[Jazzooo]

Larry, the short answer is usually this: if it really sounds perfect, it's been manipulated.

It's no big thing to take a live drummer's performance, then quantize it--roping in any beats that occur outside of the 'perfect' relationship to the beat. Another technique is to take one perfect measure and loop it till you come to another part of the song. And most common of all is replacing the actual drum sounds with samples of better drums (often played by better drummers in better studios).

It sucks. Except for dance music (that is, the thobbing stuff young people dance to at raves and such), rhythmic perfection tends to turn me off. Push and pull--that's what is fun for me.

[graypencil]

Larry:

Doug is right ..they can manipulate ANYTHING with the new digital technology( like ProTools)

A couple weeks ago, I spent 6 hours cleaning up a ..umm..less than perfect big band date for a singer friend of mine ..literally lifting out all the bad lead trumpet clams ONE BY ONE and replacing them with similar notes from outakes that didn't suck quite as badly

on another note: A week ago , I went down and played" rock groupie" and hung out with my buddy Pat Coil who was playing B3 with the Michael McDonald tour ..and THAT was a ball!! the band played its ass off ..LIVE! ..and it was such a pleasant experience to hear GOOD cats who'd played togehjter every night for several months nail things to the wall!

[Enforcer]

Thanks, guys. That confirms my suspicions.

I'm with you, Doug. If you listen to most of the great jazz recordings of all time, there are all sorts of imperfections in the spacing between the notes. The interpretation of the space between note values is very much a part of the feel each drummer possesses. It's a very individual thing. The way he "swings" is all about those subtle differences and it's what distinguishes one drummer from another. Now that the industry has become accustomed to the perfection, we've been robbed of that part of the drummer's personality on recordings. It's too bad. I don't like hearing everyone sound the same.