Ornette Coleman - At The Golden Circle -- Vols. 1 & 2

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Ornette Coleman, alto sax, trumpet, violin
David Izenzon, bass
Charles Moffett, drums

Recorded December 3 -4, 1965

I haven't heard this music in over a decade, probably on LP. I had a slight remembrance of frentic alto on top of chimmering cimbals. That's about it. So i tended to lump these recordings with Ornette's quartet sides earlier in the decade. BMG had these on sale so naturally I went for them. Something interesting to play (quietly) in the office.

Wow.

This is essential listening. I buy so much msuic that the good and great tends to get lost. Moffett was a revelation to me. Lots of Ed Blackwell in there (maybe a cross between Ed and Higgins?) with the occasional Tony Williams' rim shot (circa "Orbits") thrown in. There where times when he and Izenzon would lock in on the fast tempos I'd get up and do that little dance Monk would do sometimes on stage.

Ornette's soloing was much more intense than from the early '60s. He didn't speak in tongues like Dolphy, but he definately was talking his own language. He doesn't tell a story like Lester said you had to, there are fits and starts, commas and colons all over the place, with a few parenthesis thrown in for good measure. No true resolutions with statements ending in question marks or simply trailing off ...

2 CDs of fabulous music sitting right under my nose. I need to take a Reynolds sabbatical and rediscover the music I already have. There may be more gems like this hidden in there.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Darryl - As you say "essential"....although very different from the quartet?

And I find Moffet more like Sid Catlett? Nothing wroing with that. And I can understand you "dancing"!

Not too keen on Ornette's "other" instruments...but...a joy of a release.

"ORNETTE ON TENOR "(Atlantic) is a another greatly underated record.
Jimmy Garrison is a knock out.

Besta RC.

[Enforcer]

One of my favorites too, Darryl. This one does get lost, because the early Atlantics get all the attention.

I want a video clip of that dance. I've done it myself several times, although not necessarily to this particular piece of music.

[Nate Dorward]

It's great stuff! But I think the Croydon Hall concert is even better...! Why's no-one released that on CD?

[John L]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

It's great stuff! But I think the Croydon Hall concert is even better...! Why's no-one released that on CD?

Yes! The Croydon Hall concert is fabulous! Someday it should make it to CD.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Larry,

No one should see me doing the Monk dance.

Ricardo,

Yeah, I feel these trio sides are different from the early Atlantics. One reason is obvious, there's no other horn. he doesn't have Cherry to play off of. Plus the quartet really reminded me at times of Dizzy and Bird.

But I get the impression that Ornette's soloing on the fast numbers is more intense and maybe more abstract. On the early Atlantics he sounded like wild bebop to me, not so on the Golden Circle sides.

Of course, I haven't listened to the early Atlantics in a while, more recently than this trio. It would be interesting to put an afternoon aside and just do that.

[Enforcer]

I don't think Ornette sounds the same on this date as he did on the early Atlantics. Like Darryl says, the phrasing got more abstract and less bebopish. If you begin with Something Else!!! and then progress to Shape or Change, there's a shift. Something sounds like straight ahead bop to me now, although at the time it probably didn't. The piano ropes Ornette in and his phrases are pretty conventional, although he's struggling to break loose. But Shape and Change are still melodic and have a tension and release element in the alto solos. Golden Circle does not.

To my ears, anyway.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Larry,

I think early Ornette sounds the way it does because of the rhythm sections. We're talking about the Contemporary sides, right? I think Shelley Mann (spelling?) was the drummer on one, and I remember reading an interview where Ornette had serious problems with the bop trumpter (Dorham?) on the other one. Ornette really didn't start to sound like "Ornette" on records until he hooked up with Higgins, Haden, et al on records.

[Enforcer]

Darryl,

Correct. I think the piano was the biggest part of it, though. It's a shock to the system to hear him with a piano when I listen to that record today. I still don't think Higgins was unconventional as a drummer for that period. He was a pretty straight ahead cat by any standard. Haden is another story, but even his role was freed up by the absence of the ivories.

IMO, anyway.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

I remember reading an interview where Ornette had serious problems with the bop trumpter (Dorham?) on the other one.

I think you may be thinking of the friction between Dorham & Cecil Taylor at the ill-fated Coltrane Time date.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Pete,

You're probably right. In the past year I started a book on some of the early free-jazzers, profiles on Cecil and Ornette were included.

I can't remember, was Cherry on those early Contemporary sides? Probably, I'd guess.

[shrugs]

re: this trio

aren't there some great bootleg cd's that were put out in Europe?

I have an lp called The Unprecedented Music of Ornette Coleman that has Ornette, Izenzon, Charlie Haden and Ed Blackwell. Great stuff from what I remember.

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

Pete,

You're probably right. In the past year I started a book on some of the early free-jazzers, profiles on Cecil and Ornette were included.

I can't remember, was Cherry on those early Contemporary sides? Probably, I'd guess.

Cherry was on both Contemporaries I'm aware of (Something Else!!! and Tomorrow Is The Question). Manne was only on Tomorrow, I believe. Tomorrow was the second of those recordings, so I don't know why he chose Manne for just that record, since he already had Higgins on the prior one and he obviously went on to become a major collaborator.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

Tomorrow was the second of those recordings, so I don't know why he chose Manne for just that record, since he already had Higgins on the prior one and he obviously went on to become a major collaborator.

It's possible that it was Lester Koenig's decision; perhaps the Walter Norris addition was Koenig's idea too. Norris was a good enough player then, but some years later he became a really original voice.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I can't swear by this, but wasn't Manne an early supporter of what Ornette was trying to do? I may have read that in Litweiller's book.

[Enforcer]

I don't recall that, Darryl, but that doesn't mean anything. It could very well be. Some of the cats who were supporting Ornette were less than obvious to me. Didn't John Lewis praise him right from the beginning? I mean, we're talking about a cat from the motherf**king MJQ here, not exactly a bastion of jazz revolutionaries.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

I can't swear by this, but wasn't Manne an early supporter of what Ornette was trying to do? I may have read that in Litweiller's book.

I wouldn't be surprised. Manne was very open-minded and forward thinking. His album "The Three" with Giuffre & Shorty Rogers was pretty out for its time.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

The inclusion of Manne couldn't have hurt sales. Plus his presence would give a relative unkown some legitimacy. My brain cells aren't firing on all cylinders these days. I'll try digging up a copy of Harmolodic Life.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Ornette Coleman in Europe, Vol. 1 (Freedom FLP 40102)

Ornette Coleman (as, tp, vln) David Izenzon (b) Charles Moffett (d) "Fairfield Hall", Croydon, England, August 29, 1965
Sadness
Clergyman's Dream

Edward Walker (fl) Derek Wickers (ob) John Burden (ehr) Cecil James (basn) Sidney Fell (cl) Ornette Coleman (comp)
same location, date
Sounds and Forms for Wind Quintet

Ornette Coleman in Europe, Vol. 2 (Freedom FLP 40103)
Ornette Coleman (as, tp, vln) David Izenzon (b) Charles Moffett (d)
same location, date
Falling Stars
Silence
Happy Fool
untitled ballad
Doughnuts

Also issued in Japan on CD as “An Evening with Ornette Coleman” (1990).Out of print? ... in US on Arista Freedom (LPs) out of print?

RC.

[shrugs]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

Ornette Coleman in Europe, Vol. 1 (Freedom FLP 40102)

Ornette Coleman (as, tp, vln) David Izenzon (b) Charles Moffett (d) "Fairfield Hall", Croydon, England, August 29, 1965
Sadness
Clergyman's Dream

Edward Walker (fl) Derek Wickers (ob) John Burden (ehr) Cecil James (basn) Sidney Fell (cl) Ornette Coleman (comp)
same location, date
Sounds and Forms for Wind Quintet

Ornette Coleman in Europe, Vol. 2 (Freedom FLP 40103)
Ornette Coleman (as, tp, vln) David Izenzon (b) Charles Moffett (d)
same location, date
Falling Stars
Silence
Happy Fool
untitled ballad
Doughnuts

Also issued in Japan on CD as “An Evening with Ornette Coleman” (1990).Out of print? ... in US on Arista Freedom (LPs) out of print?

RC.

I have Vol. 2. I am not sure I would listen to it more than once. I think I bought a Japanese lp of vol. 1 at e-bay for a good price since it was listed under hip-hop.

[Tanager]

These were the CDs that finally sold me on Ornette, since I found his earlier sides much less interesting than advertised (sue me). I like the absence of the second horn, b/c I think it makes Ornette fill in the spaces himself, and I think it's at least partially (as more knowledgeable posters have observed) the openness of the context that makes the music so compelling.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Tanager

These were the CDs that finally sold me on Ornette, since I found his earlier sides much less interesting than advertised (sue me).

I understand completely. I think it was with this trio that he solidified a rhythmic concept that became the cornerstone of all his work thereafter, while the Atlantics still have a foot in bebop. For me the most successful of the Atlantics is one of the least known, Ornette!, with LaFaro & Blackwell.