Women denied vote in Saudi Arabia

[claude]

Saudis: It's too late for women to vote in 2005; 2009 not looking good either

RIYADH, Saudi Arabia (AP) - Women will not be able to participate in Saudi Arabi's first countrywide elections because authorities in the strictly segregated country did not have enough time to prepare for both sexes to run and vote, the head of the elections committee said Tuesday.

Prince Mansour also could not say whether women would be allowed to take part in the next round of municipal elections in 2009, stressing that would be up to the committee planning those polls.

The electoral law has no provisions explicitly banning women, he said.

"It's difficult, given the limited period of time we have, for ladies to participate in the elections," the prince said at a news conference. The committee had a year to prepare for the polls, scheduled to begin Feb. 10 around the capital, Riyadh.

Prince Mansour was not specific, but separate polling areas run by female election judges presumably would be required. Because unrelated men and women do not mix in Saudi Arabia, campaigning by female candidates also could become a sensitive subject.

Saleh al-Malek, a member of the elections committee, acknowledged that "social constraints" were also a factor. Saudi Arabia, the birthplace of Islam, imposes strict restrictions on women and conservatives feel that giving freedoms to women would lead to the corruption of society.


Al-Malek said the upcoming elections are a "first experience ... We don't want it to be a failure."

"It's up to the royal court to say yes or no to when women can participate," he said.

Polling in the eastern and southwestern regions will follow the capital, starting March 3. Voters in northern parts of the country will vote April 21.

Saudi Arabia's only electoral experiences were some municipal polls held in a few cities in the 1960s. They did not cover the whole country, and their electoral rules and registration procedures did not conform to international standards. Women did not vote.

The elections committee has chosen a slogan for the process, "Take part in decision-making," one that is directed at those eligible to vote - men over 21.

Mansour said that to "lay down the correct and sound basis" of running the electoral process, the committee got help from experts at the United Nations, a local law firm and a German company that specializes in such services.

The elections are part of the government's measured response to calls for political and social change. Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy with an unelected consultative council, which acts like a parliament. Political parties are banned and press freedoms are limited.

[cookie]

Pushing this to the top.

It pisses me off that women are treated like that in Saudi Arabia (or anywhere). It's hard for me as an American woman to even relate to that. Then again, when you think of it, it hasn't been *all* that long since women were allowed to vote right here in the US.

[Pete C]

All societies are not equal. I hope that's not too un-P.C. a thing to say.

[cookie]

Well, that may or may not be true depending on one's semantics, worldview, ignorance, whim or what not.

All I know is that I enjoy my freedom and am pretty aware that my life is pretty amazing just in the number of choices and avenues that are open to me. Some people think it's a crime against "God's plan" but I'm grateful I don't have to put up with that sh**. I'm glad I live in a country where I pretty much have a right to be "uppity" if I want to.

I think the US is a fabulous place to be a woman. Wild women are welcome here. I wish every woman could have such a wide range of choices so they could exercise control over their lives. That isn't to say that women who choose to submit to traditional roles shouldn't do so. But it should be that: a choice.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by cookie

Pushing this to the top.

It pisses me off that women are treated like that in Saudi Arabia (or anywhere). It's hard for me as an American woman to even relate to that. Then again, when you think of it, it hasn't been *all* that long since women were allowed to vote right here in the US.

My mother was one of those stridant women who insisted that I vote. Her mother had fought for the vote as a young woman and as you say, it was not that long ago that we women were not allowed to vote.
I'm convinced that there are many men who long for the days when we were simply property, which might explain all the off-shore brides these days.
Strong women with power are seen by many as threatening. I'm surprised that with about 52% of both Canada and the U.S. being comprised of women, that we don't have more political power. But, that's another subject.

So, given the struggle which our mothers and grandmothers went through to get the vote, it's astounding to me that so many women don't bother to vote. My mother would ask "How dare they?" I must admit that I have the same opinion of those who hold this powerful weapon and choose not to use it to effect real change. Very puzzling, to say the least.

Why bother to worry about Saudi Arabian women being prevented from getting the right to vote if we have it and don't bother to use it??? Clearly, it's not that important to us, or we would ALL vote.

[claude]

I agree to a point with Pete that all societies are not equal. Having said that there are certain things that I think societies should be open to criticism for. The world took a strong stand against apartheid and it seems that there are some positive changes happening in South Africa that are at least partially due to that world pressure. So why can't we take a similarly strong stand against societies that denigrate women? I don't give a rat's ass what the reasons are, religious or otherwise, some things are just wrong!

In addition societies that make a policy of excluding 50% of society from participating freely in that society are cheating themselves out of a lot of potentially productive members of society and a lot of wisdom. You could argue that it is their loss, but we are all living on the same planet and we all suffer in some way for this.

My $.02 on this subject

[Pete C]

I've been misunderstood. My intent was just the opposite of my statement's reception. I was making an anti-cultural-relativist point. I was not saying we should excuse them, but rather that we should not accept arguments defending the practices based on "culture." I should have been more explicit. Also, while I think all religions are pretty bad, in my old age I'm becoming convinced that some are worse than others.

[claude]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I've been misunderstood. My intent was just the opposite of my statement's reception. I was making an anti-cultural-relativist point. I was not saying we should excuse them, but rather that we should not accept arguments defending the practices based on "culture." I should have been more explicit. Also, while I think all religions are pretty bad, in my old age I'm becoming convinced that some are worse than others.

Sorry Pete, my mistake. I should have known you wouldn't be a relativist.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by cookie

I think the US is a fabulous place to be a woman. Wild women are welcome here.

Not always, and there are plenty of people, many of them in power, who would have it otherwise.

[Monte Smith]

Oh come on. At least the Koranic tyrants of Saudi Arabia make a case on this one. Naturally women can't vote: they don't have photo IDs because they can't drive and anyway the men make them hide their identifiable features under tarpaulins. So its not like this is arbitrary.

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the Saudis are dirtbags and their culture is pure and simple crap.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Not always, and there are plenty of people, many of them in power, who would have it otherwise.

Exactly my point, Pete. I take the term "uppity woman" as a compliment, but it is a description that is silently and not so silently applied, still in our so-called enlightened times.
What are people afraid of?? Are they afraid that women might want a slice of the cultural pie that they helped to bake?? [sorry for the corny metaphore, but you know what I mean].

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Back in my college days I took one of those courses that combined sociology with awhole lot of 'ology disciplines. I guess what you're supposed to take away from the course is the validity of other cultures different from your own.

You know what?

Screw that.

I'm reminded of a Bill Mahler routine where he compared the predominate Islamic culture with ours. There are some principles that should be universal. Yeah our society has its screwed up ways. It ain't nirvana. But when you have a whole class of people denied some basic rights just because of some rules made up in the caveman days that don't make it right just because "it's their culture".

Let's face it. It's backwards thinking and it may be one of the reasons some parts of the Islamic world is so far behind the West in science, economics and other important areas. Basically you're keeping probably half your population from reaching its full potential.

Because I'm Black I'm realing feeling this because it reminds me so much of the stories older folks in my family talk about growing up in Georgia back in the day. This shit is nuts and defies logic.

The sad thing is we may be talking centuries before we get past crap like this. And guess what? We'd still find some corner of the world practicing the good old days.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by patricia

My mother was one of those stridant women who insisted that I vote. Her mother had fought for the vote as a young woman and as you say, it was not that long ago that we women were not allowed to vote.
I'm convinced that there are many men who long for the days when we were simply property, which might explain all the off-shore brides these days.
Strong women with power are seen by many as threatening. I'm surprised that with about 52% of both Canada and the U.S. being comprised of women, that we don't have more political power. But, that's another subject.

So, given the struggle which our mothers and grandmothers went through to get the vote, it's astounding to me that so many women don't bother to vote. My mother would ask "How dare they?" I must admit that I have the same opinion of those who hold this powerful weapon and choose not to use it to effect real change. Very puzzling, to say the least.

Why bother to worry about Saudi Arabian women being prevented from getting the right to vote if we have it and don't bother to use it??? Clearly, it's not that important to us, or we would ALL vote.

Lately, the choices have simply not been there.
But I do vote.
About Saudi Arabia, it only shows how men are afraid. Of what? Loosing their slaves maybe?

[Enforcer]

One thing that suppressing a woman's right to vote does is make it really hard to argue when someone calls your cultural values "f**ked in the head."

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

Basically you're keeping probably half your population from reaching its full potential.

Precisely. Change that one fact about Arabian culture, and nothing else, and you will have done the bulk of the work in making the region better and more stable and more livable for the Arabs and less of a hazard for the rest of the world.

Women of the Arab nations, unveil!

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I've been misunderstood.

Hit it, boys and girls!

Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood

The Animals
(Benjamin/Marcus/Caldwell)
from Animal Tracks (1965)

Baby, do you understand me now,
Sometimes I feel a little mad.
But, don't you know that no one alive can always be an angel.
When things go wrong I feel real bad.

I'm just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

Baby, sometimes I'm so carefree,
With a joy that's hard to hide.
And sometimes it seems that, all I have to do is worry
And then you're bound to see my other side.

I'm just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

If I seem edgy,
I want you to know,
That I never mean to take it out on you.

Life has its problems,
And I get my share,
And that's one thing I never mean to do,

'Cause I love you,
Oh,

Oh, oh, oh, baby - don't you know I'm human.
I have thoughts like any other one.
Sometimes I find myself, Lord, regretting,
Some foolish thing - some little simple thing I've done.

I'm just a soul whose intentions are good,
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by cookie

Well, that may or may not be true depending on one's semantics, worldview, ignorance, whim or what not.

All I know is that I enjoy my freedom and am pretty aware that my life is pretty amazing just in the number of choices and avenues that are open to me. Some people think it's a crime against "God's plan" but I'm grateful I don't have to put up with that sh**. I'm glad I live in a country where I pretty much have a right to be "uppity" if I want to.

I think the US is a fabulous place to be a woman. Wild women are welcome here. I wish every woman could have such a wide range of choices so they could exercise control over their lives. That isn't to say that women who choose to submit to traditional roles shouldn't do so. But it should be that: a choice.

Most of those women wouldn't like to live like north american women do. And most of them don't understand we find them "unlucky".

Well, count me as a supporter here.

I think letting broads vote is a horrible idea. Now, don't get me wrong, broads are intelligent for the most part, but they are incredibly unreasonable, and irrational.

I don't have a problem with them driving, although most of them are just plain bad at it, but lets be honest here, they've got enough rights as it is.

The whole voting thing is just a little too much, if you ask me.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Jazzonline,

I think you're just guessing. What would be interesting would be a poll of Muslim women living in Western countries. They see women living different lifestyles from there own.

I mean if I live in Chicago and see a bunch of women driving cars and SUVs and then go back to Saudi Arabia and have some fool tell me I can drive I'd get pissed.

We're not talking about every Muslim woman just dieing to get their navels pierced and run around dressed like Christina Agulera. We're talking about basic crap like driving a car, or being able to be seen to in public with a man other than your husband and not get stoned. Or like get an education. Or just leave the house for a breath of fresh air (if the Taliban's in charge).

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Well, count me as a supporter here.

I think letting broads vote is a horrible idea. Now, don't get me wrong, broads are intelligent for the most part, but they are incredibly unreasonable, and irrational.

I don't have a problem with them driving, although most of them are just plain bad at it, but lets be honest here, they've got enough rights as it is.

The whole voting thing is just a little too much, if you ask me.

Awww, Scott...
You're so... SEXY when you talk like that...

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

Awww, Scott...
You're so... SEXY when you talk like that...

I can't help it.........

[claude]

Scott, is there a story behind that new avatar?

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I'm just glad it's not two guys.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

I can't help it.........

Try a lil harder.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

I'm just glad it's not two guys.

Korean comedian Cha Tae Hyun from My Sassy Girl teams up with Park Joong Hoon (Hwang San Bul) to show off extraordinary comedic flair in action comedy Two Guys.

Hoon (Cha Tae Hyun) works as a driver for people who for special reasons cannot drive themselves. As he has never made any efforts to repay his huge debts, debt collection agent Joon Tae (Park Joong Hoon) comes to him one day and threatens to take out Hoon's internal organs for sale if he does not settle the debt within 14 hours. Closely followed by Joon Tae, Hoon has no choice but to work as Joon Tae's partner. After driving for a drunk expatriate customer, they accidentally find the most advanced semiconductor made in South Korea. Trying to make big money with it, they suddenly discover that they are wanted by industrial spy agents and the national information bureau…

Originally Posted by claude

Scott, is there a story behind that new avatar?

Yes.

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

Try a lil harder.

Make me something to eat!

[patricia]

Aw. Men aren't so bad. I've heard rumours that, with patience many of them can be taught to do simple tricks.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

Jazzonline,

I think you're just guessing. What would be interesting would be a poll of Muslim women living in Western countries. They see women living different lifestyles from there own.

I mean if I live in Chicago and see a bunch of women driving cars and SUVs and then go back to Saudi Arabia and have some fool tell me I can drive I'd get pissed.

We're not talking about every Muslim woman just dieing to get their navels pierced and run around dressed like Christina Agulera. We're talking about basic crap like driving a car, or being able to be seen to in public with a man other than your husband and not get stoned. Or like get an education. Or just leave the house for a breath of fresh air (if the Taliban's in charge).

I was talking about women who always lived there. Of course, those who live in America must have another opinion.
I have a friend who traveled a lot in those countries. He said what women living there found bad about the way we live were things like: we have to work, we are raped, we are stressed, etc.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Make me something to eat!

You have to say "PLEASE" first, and only if you promise to eat it all.
*grins*
(ever seen the movie "Prince of tides" ?)