Sexual orientation

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[sonic1]

I don't think a scientific study has either the right nor the ability to prove something as complex as whether or not sexuality is genetic or not.

I saw some time ago a study done on this subject and the so called gay gene is not really a gene unto itself, but probably a complex combination of genes, just as is true with other less concrete traits.

But even this to me is weak because there is so much we don't understand about genetics, the nervous system, the endocrine system, etc. that I think we are missing any of the tools necessary to make such a judgement.

Therefore we should go off the word of most who ARE gay. I have never taken a poll, but all but one of the many gays I have known in my life have told me they were born that way. The one who said he "chooses" homosexuality said it in such a way that I think he was making a theoretical argument beyond what we are discussing here. I don't know exactly the number of gays I have asked this of or have had this conversation with but it has been a lot. And I have known at least hundreds of gays throughout my life in different parts of the country (I used to move/travel a lot). Four of those people were friends I knew from elementary or jr. high school-whom I suspected of being gay before they came out.

There is my answer: oh yeah, dolan can't hear me now...

Dolan is a douchebag!

Dolan is a douchebag!

Dolan is a douchebag!

[Uli]

shouldn't this thread be in the alley?

[claude]

Don't mean to be the hall monitor, but what does this have to do with politics, world issues & world events?

I suppose an argument could be made for this being a world issue since it is an issue and it happens in our world. But then every issue other than issues related to things not happening on earth would be a world issue using that logic which kind of kills the whole thread separation concept. The fact that I am thinking about this is proof that I need to get out and round up more business because I am obviously not busy enough. See you

[mke]

A new one to me: asexuals.

[claude]

Originally Posted by mke

A new one to me: asexuals.

Would make life a lot simpler, but a lot less interesting..

[sonic1]

Now if I could "choose" my sexuality I would certainly "choose" to be asexual. But that is impossible. I could never deny my attraction for women. I said in a post in another thread that if I could have chosen my sexuality, then growing up around gays, I would have chosen to be gay since I thought they were all so cool. But I just never found I wanted to be with a man.

Maybe the question to ask here is this: do you feel you were born heterosexual (assuming most of us are here)? It might not prove that gays choose to be gay, but it would prove heterosexuals did not necessarily choose to be heterosexual. It was never a question in my mind, despite how I grew up.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

I wondered if any of the liberlas around here would have some more insight into this subject since it seems to be such a favorite.

Guess I was wrong.

As a liberla the subject is not one of my favorites, it's more of a non issue. What interests me as a liberal is the discrimination issue. And in that regard it does not make any difference to me whether somebody chooses to be homosexual or is born that way.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Well, it should, Uli. Because that is the seed that discrimination sprouts from.

I don't understand that. Can you x-plain?

[tippy]

If you commit a sexual act that would not result in procreation, then you might be gay.

[Noj]

The gay ladies and dudes I've met at my work are gay by nature, I'd bet.

There's Margo, she's like my homie, one of the boys. I give her a pound and we'll scope out the girl interns together. No way did she choose to be who she is, she's just barely feminine from a physical standpoint.

There's Carl, who bakes cookies, gossips like daytime TV, and does ballet pirouettes down the hallway--he's about 6'6", 270lbs, and black. This dude couldn't have chosen his personality, no way.

There's Nancy, who I talk baseball with sometimes--she played third base for a Pac-10 school. I highly doubt she chose her sexuality, I bet it came as natural as her swing. She is who she is.

Even if gay folks do choose, I agree with Uli that I wouldn't care. It is none of my business.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Sure.

Racism, bigotry, homophobia, these things are born from misunderstanding, or a simple minded willingness to not even try.

The homosexual argument is whether or not it is a perfectly natural physiological mapping in the human brain, or whether it is a deviant sexual practice.

I would be very interested in seeing the rug pulled out from under all of those who believe that homosexuality is a choice rather than a natural feeling.

So what I'm saying to you in my previous post is that a comprehensive finding SHOULD be important to anyone who is for gay rights. If it were to be irrefutably proven that homosexuality is indeed natural and inborn, then arguments against homosexual rights will slowly but surely start to crumble.

ok, I see your point that I mite help getting rid of prejudices. But how would it change "A marriage is a union between a man and a woman''? But I think we have discussed that already.

[Slurpy]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

I would be very interested in seeing the rug pulled out from under all of those who believe that homosexuality is a choice rather than a natural feeling.

So what I'm saying to you in my previous post is that a comprehensive finding SHOULD be important to anyone who is for gay rights. If it were to be irrefutably proven that homosexuality is indeed natural and inborn, then arguments against homosexual rights will slowly but surely start to crumble.

OK, not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I was not aware the bigots who claim homosexuality is a choice, had any rug left to stand on? Isn't it pretty common knowledge in the medical/scientific community that homosexuality is most certainly a trait one is born with? Perhaps there are circumstances where young people who feel they are straight (or who simply haven't thought about or questioned their sexuality) have had a traumatic experience, like being raped, and have turned out gay? Then again, perhaps these folks already had whatever genetic predispostion it is that causes one to be homosexual? Then again again.....what do I know? I get turned on by Scott's damned avatar.

[tippy]

Wait a second, Noj...you're pounding Margo or giving her a pound of something?

[claude]

Originally Posted by tippy

If you commit a sexual act that would not result in procreation, then you might be gay.

Jeezuz,

Using that logic I've been gay since I had that hernia operation that went horribly wrong.

Who knew?

Maybe I can get a job as an interior designer now.

[crawjo]

It seems to me that the origin of homosexuality is critical in the debate regarding the rights that homosexuals should have in society. Now, I don't agree that it SHOULD be critical, but I think that it is. Among many people, I know that there is a belief that homosexuals are that way because of their environment, rather than something inherent in who they are.

For instance, there is a member of my family who is gay. My grandmother has said to me that she regrets not spending more time with this individual during their childhood, because then maybe she could have steered them onto the "right" course. When this person was married recently, in a gay ceremony, my grandmother, and several other members of my family were not present, because they objected to it. This is something that is tearing apart families all around this country right now.

Because, as my grandmother's attitude demonstrates, there is a belief that homosexuality is something that is learned, and, therefore, can be avoided, or maybe even unlearned. A lot of Christians believe homosexuals can be "cured" of their "disease."

If, however, we could demonstrate that homosexuality was something one was born with, that might change the dynamics of the debate. I don't think it should, though. Ideally, I think that society should just accept people for who they are, and be happy that other people are able to find happiness in their lives, and not be so judgmental about it.

BTW: I think we are in the right forum. This is a political question, as well as a social question, and a cultural question.

[Ron Thorne]

It's always been very curious to me that homophobes believe that they were born as heterosexuals, yet deny any other possiblity, especially homosexuality for others. What, are homophobes somehow the medical/psycho-sexual scholars and authorities for us all to praise for "getting it right"?

What might be considered "normal" sexual interest or activity for a homosexual would probably not be considered quite as "normal" for a heterosexual, and vice versa. That doesn't necessarily mean that either's interest or behavior is abnormal, simply different, one from the other. Why is that so difficult to comprehend and accept, I wonder? Hell, there's quite a range of sexual likes and dislikes within a given sexual preference.

• Ignorance is bliss.

• Hypocrisy is the model.

• America's hangups with sexuality are legendary.

[Underhound]

I don't remember choosing to be hetero.
I do remember as a child getting a reaction (wood) when thinking about certain women and not knowing why.

I also remember Kevin, a boy my age who moved into our neighborhood when we were about nine years old. When the moving van and family car pulled up to the house and he got out, the other kids and I knew right away - "sissy".
As he grew up it was obvious that he was not just your average effeminate guy but a full-blown homosexual one. The poor kid took a trainload of abuse from everyone around him-teachers, kids, even his parents.

I doubt it was all a result of a choice he made when he was nine?

[Enforcer]

Scott,

It's a good question, and I don't have the answer. You're right that it would be important to a lot of people and the right answer could make a difference to some people when they form their attitudes about it. When it comes to nature vs. nurture, it's often a tough call. Sometimes, it's almost exclusively one of the two. When we're not sure which it is, my default is to figure it's a combination of both. There is genetic predisposition, and then certain environmental factors bring it to fruition.

What I can say, with absolute certainty, is that I don't give a f**k what the cause is. And I can also say that I cannot believe how much energy and thought is put into it by so many people. This literally comes down to what she does with her snatch and what I do with my dick. Think about that. If my dick crosses the imaginary line into someone's mouth, then depending on whether the mouth belongs to a man or a woman, I'm either "OK" or I'm not. That's unbef**kinglievable to me.

So I've turned this intelligent question into a soapbox, but hey, I'm just a drummer who likes college girls. Cut me some slack.

Larry

[Slurpy]

Originally Posted by crawjo

A lot of Christians believe homosexuals can be "cured" of their "disease."

OK, *now* I'm going to ruffle some feathers. Just about nothing pisses me off more than Christian hypocrisy regarding homosexuality (and abortion,
but we've already gone there, and that's another kettle-o-fish). Christians are supposed to believe in an omnipotent God that is perfect. If one of His perfect creations turns out to be gay, who's fault is that? Utter hypocrisy.

[Coda]

A lot of young women are experimenting with homosexuality today. Anyone remember the Madonna Brittney kiss? There is some amount of nurture to the equation, otherwise this wouldn't be on the increase. I would agree that there is much much more nature overall, but it's not completely black & white.

[Pete C]

I believe my orientation is innate, but that my deviant sexual practices are chosen.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I don't remember choosing to be hetero.
I do remember as a child getting a reaction (wood) when thinking about certain women and not knowing why.

.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Slurpy

OK, *now* I'm going to ruffle some feathers. Just about nothing pisses me off more than Christian hypocrisy regarding homosexuality (and abortion,
but we've already gone there, and that's another kettle-o-fish). Christians are supposed to believe in an omnipotent God that is perfect. If one of His perfect creations turns out to be gay, who's fault is that? Utter hypocrisy.

I agree 100 percent.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Coda

A lot of young women are experimenting with homosexuality today. Anyone remember the Madonna Brittney kiss? There is some amount of nurture to the equation, otherwise this wouldn't be on the increase. I would agree that there is much much more nature overall, but it's not completely black & white.

Intense, homosexual relationships between women were also fairly common during the Victorian era, when women were supposed to be confined to their "sphere" and so forth.

[Enforcer]

Sexuality is a weird f**king thing. It manifests itself in strange ways. I mean, does anyone think that prison walls somehow foster tender relationships between male prisoners? It's obviously about more than that.

[groover]

There's an obvious accepted double standard regarding this issue, which I wouldn't change for the world. For us strictly heterosexual males (whether by by birth or by choice?), male homosexuality is disgusting, but attractive lesbians, like the girls in Scott's avatar, are HOT!

[moneyp]

I don't think you could get homophobes to believe that homosexuality is inherent, but even if you could, they would probably consider it a "birth defect." You can't win with the willfully ignorant.

But seriously, is there anyone who DOESN'T enjoy a good assfucking now and then?

[Noj]

Originally Posted by tippy

Wait a second, Noj...you're pounding Margo or giving her a pound of something?

I shake her hand.

[Ron Thorne]

Originally Posted by groover

There's an obvious accepted double standard regarding this issue, which I wouldn't change for the world. For us strictly heterosexual males (whether by by birth or by choice?), male homosexuality is disgusting, but attractive lesbians, like the girls in Scott's avatar, are HOT!

Well, it may surprise you to learn that it's not my double standard, groover. Nor do I accept it as you suggest. Male homosexuality is not disgusting to me, nor do I believe for a moment that the "girls" in Scott's avatar are lesbians. I participate in only the sexual activities which my mate and I choose. Other's choices don't impact my sexuality one iota! You're referencing a turn-on to one of the most common heterosexual male fantasies, though ... having hot monkey sex with two hot babes at the same time.

My sexual orientation and tolerance for others is not mutually exclusive, nor should it be.

It should be no mystery to anyone living in America in 2004 that sexual orientation is a hot button issue. America still hasn't grown up sexually, so it will remain for the forseeable future. Why should it surprise anyone that gay relationships, sexual practices, marriage, etc. are threatening, scary and simply wrong to so many Americans?

To millions upon millions of Americans, anything other than man-on-top*-get-it-over-with-quick is considered "deviant behavior".

*... of a woman, of course!