Penguin Guide 7th Ed.

[Rob C]

I just skimmed through the new Penguin Guide at Borders. I'll be buying this one, I think--I skipped the 6th.

The newest feature is their "Core Collection"--which they say is about 200 discs they recommend as highest-priority purchases. This is separate from their (in)famous crowns. There is a lot of overlap, but not all crowns are core collection, and vice versa.

The only new crown the leaped out at me was Evan Parker's The Snake Decides (I think--it was definitely a Parker solo disc, at any rate).

Not that it really matters, but I was still gratified to see several of my favorite discs of recent years given four stars: Tim Berne's The Sublime And, Mat Maneri's Sustain, The Bad Plus's Give, Matt Wilson's Smile....

One I expected to get four stars and possibly a crown was Barry Guy's Inscape-Tableaux. It gets 3 1/2.

Oh, one core collection item that stuck out: Braxton's Eugene. I like that one, but I know it's not a favorite around here! (And there are plenty of Braxtons I like better, too, for that matter.)

[bostontricky]

This is available in the States, already? Agh! I've got one en route from Amazon's UK site, at great expense to the management.

It will be interesting to see how the core recordings dovetail with the crowns...can't wait.

[relyles]

I received mine from amazon.com a couple of weeks ago. For my it is a valuable resource, but I am very disappointed that the 7th Edition omits the index. I relied on the index to find sideman appearances by musicians.

[Rob C]

Originally Posted by relyles

I received mine from amazon.com a couple of weeks ago. For my it is a valuable resource, but I am very disappointed that the 7th Edition omits the index. I relied on the index to find sideman appearances by musicians.

I hadn't noticed that--what a drag. I guess it's because it's thick as a brick even without the index...!

[stonemonkts]

Oddly enough, and I swear this to be true, but before I read the posts here I wasn't even aware the thing had an index (I own and have read three editions).

I suppose simply having leaders listed in alphabetical order always suited my needs.

Searching for dates by sidemen is much easier using AMG online, so I suppose this explains why I was unaware of the Penguin guide containing an index.

I almost ordered my copy of the 7th from amazon.uk but discovered it at Overstock.com for $14.99. I should have it in my hands within a few days.

[Dan G]

Originally Posted by relyles

I received mine from amazon.com a couple of weeks ago. For my it is a valuable resource, but I am very disappointed that the 7th Edition omits the index. I relied on the index to find sideman appearances by musicians.

There's no index! That's the most important part of the book.

[stonemonkts]

My copy just arrived from Overstock.com.

For those who have yet to order it, I think they have the best price. To ensure you receive the 7th edition, simply enter "0141014164" into the search field, which is the ISBN# for the 7th edition. The Overstock.com item # is 3204730.

Total price incl. shipping: $16.39

[bostontricky]

You guys are friggin' killing me here. I may just bite the bullet and go out and purchase a copy this afternoon, the hell with the British post.

I guess I shot my wad when I saw the book was issued in the UK, as the sixth edition was issued in October but not "available" in the US until the following April.

What I will do with my $37 copy whenever it arrives from the UK remains to be seen. Maybe it's got an index, ha ha.

[Rob C]

Pretty good. I ordered it for $17.68 through Amazon (and took the opportunity to order Ian McEwan's Enduring Love to put me over the $25 free shipping mark).

I skimmed through more of it yesterday at Borders because I'm such a geek and found the crown/core collection distinctions interesting. For instance, Herbie's Maiden Voyage gets a crown while Head Hunters gets put in the core collection. Cecil has one crown (Nefertiti) and three core collection discs. The new edition of Ellington's Blanton-Webster collection is core collection, while Fargo 1940 gets a crown. & c.

[bostontricky]

Stop it! Stop it!

I guess I'm going to Borders after lunch.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by bostontricky

You guys are friggin' killing me here. I may just bite the bullet and go out and purchase a copy this afternoon, the hell with the British post.

I guess I shot my wad when I saw the book was issued in the UK, as the sixth edition was issued in October but not "available" in the US until the following April.

What I will do with my $37 copy whenever it arrives from the UK remains to be seen. Maybe it's got an index, ha ha.

Boston, that makes two of us. I'm still waiting for my copy to come from the UK. Both the fifth and sixth editions were out six months earlier in the UK than the US. Who knew?

[Jason Bivins]

Me three. I got an email from Amazon UK a couple weeks ago, saying it had shipped, but still no dice.

[crawjo]

EDIT: DON'T READ THIS POST IF YOU WANT TO BE SURPRISED ABOUT SOME RATINGS.

I picked up a copy today. It is interesting to read through the recent reviews included in this edition, as compared to the 5th edition. When I got that one, I was new to jazz and put much more weight on Cook and Morton's ratings. Now, I find myself in great disagreement with them on a few albums.

To give a couple of examples:

They gave William Parker's "Painter's Spring" three stars. To my ears, that album is almost crown-worthy...it's one of the best recordings of the last five years, easy.

They also gave Ellery Eskelin's "Arcanum Moderne" three stars. I think that is Ellery's finest work, and easily deserving of four stars.

I did find it interesting that they included ratings of Rowe's Erstwhile work, and here I did agree with them. Weather Sky: three stars, Duos for Doris: four stars. That is about where I would put those albums.

But really, I love this book just to be able to read about all these different works. Cook and Morton are such great writers. I'd honestly never used the index in past editions, so the absence of it does not bother me. If it meant they were able to squeeze in more reviews as a result, then it was a worthy trade-off.

[stonemonkts]

One thing I've learned about using the guide is to take the actual written review over the star rating more seriously. I can cite many times where they've awarded an album 3 stars but in the review offer praise which you would logically conclude should afford the recording a higher star rating. I too once gave the ratings much more weight. Now I focus more on what they write about a given recording.

Their review of Arcanum Moderne is a good example. Towards the end of the review it seemed like they almost as much as admitted that Eskelin is probably making some extraordinary music, if only they could feel it more, to borrow a phrase from HL.

I've skimmed it for a few hours today. They have certainly maintained their high standard of writing. They must be two tireless mofos.

I've actually discovered two instances of new reviews in the 7th where they awarded stuff I like 2.5 stars, which should mean it sucks. Evan Parker/George Graewe - Unity Variations, and Irene Schweizer/Co Strief - Twin Lines (where they also basically say it could be just fine, or maybe it's not, depending on your expectations for the duo).

I think they do a remarkable job overall.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by crawjo

I did find it interesting that they included ratings of Rowe's Erstwhile work, and here I did agree with them. Weather Sky: three stars, Duos for Doris: four stars. That is about where I would put those albums.

interesting, they must have bought those themselves. now I have to buy this, I guess...

[bostontricky]

Originally Posted by Jason Bivins

Me three. I got an email from Amazon UK a couple weeks ago, saying it had shipped, but still no dice.

Two hours after I got back to the ranch with my copy from Borders, a package from the UK shows up.

[stonemonkts]

Eh whaddayou care the friggin Sox won.

[J.A.W.]

Originally Posted by stonemonkts

Eh whaddayou care the friggin Sox won.

YEP!

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

interesting, they must have bought those themselves. now I have to buy this, I guess...

Weather Sky, Rabbit Run, and The World Turned Upside down all get three stars. "Harsh" on the Grob label (now OOP) and "Grain" on Zarek also get three. the MIMEO/Tillbury recording is not even listed.

Neither are a handful of other CDs I would have thought fit for inclusion, given Morton and Cook's rather broad definition of Jazz. I would have liked to have seen ratings for Lidingö, the Dörner/Drumm disc on Erstwhile, the Bosseti/Krebs disc on Grob and the Phosphor disc on Potlatch. Alas, those apparently are not "Jazz." The Contest of Pleasures is listed, I think it also got a three star rating. I put the book back on the shelf, as it was rather overpriced and I'm not sure if I really need it.

[Jon Abbey]

yeah, I don't really expect them to have anything insightful to say about any of that stuff. judging from past editions, the "eai" world is a bit beyond them, but I still should check it out.

[bostontricky]

One quick observation: by branding some CD "Core Collection" and maintaining the crowns, the Penguins have in a way ruined the simplicity of the past, by simply coronating a number of excellent discs within a four-star system.

Now, there's sort of a three-tier system, with some albums with both a crown and Core Collection, some with a crown only, and some core collection only. Add to that a couple of the Core Collection were awarded three-and-a-half stars (while others by the same artist were awarded four stars!) and the whole enterprise starts to become a little blurry.

[stonemonkts]

A few random thoughts:

I think the addition of 200 "core" selections only adds to the book's value. In essence they have chosen 200 recordings from virtually every jazz genre. The "crown" picks are closer to the recordings they personally favor, the ones which give them the most enjoyment. If I had to choose crown selections I'm sure I would duplicate some of theirs but certainly not all, or probably not even half. For instance, in my opinion Miles Smiles is as worthy of a crown as any other recording in that book.

Anyway, for people just starting out I think the 200 core selections are extremely helpful.

Which one of you geeks will list all 200?

[Dan G]

Originally Posted by stonemonkts

Which one of you geeks will list all 200?

And which ones will own all 200?

[bostontricky]

Originally Posted by stonemonkts

Which one of you geeks will list all 200?

Give me enough time to type them in...

I agree that the core selections add value to the book, but the mishmosh of crown only, core only, and both crown + core kind of blurs things a little.

- - -

New crowns, 7th ed.:

Amalgam - Prayer for Peace
Rashaan Roland Kirk - A Meeting of the Times
Rene Marie - Vertigo
New Orleans Rhythm Kings - 1922-1925: The Complete Set
Evan Parker - The Snake Decides

For me, this is one of the great things about the PJG - where are you ever going to see the above five albums listed anywhere but here? You couldn't have picked more than two of those if you were allowed to pick 100 albums each.

- - -

Originally Posted by Dan G

And which ones will own all 200?

I don't think my budget or my shelf space here could withstand that hit. I've got a couple dozen of the core collection already (the list is wonderfully diverse, like the crowns), but could definitely stand to pick up a half dozen or so - the AEC Nessa box made the core list.

I'll pick up the new crowns at the very least, and write Dragon Records in Sweden about finally reissuing Lars Gullin's work from 1954-55 on CD - I have all the other crowns, all on CD.

[Dan G]

Have they restored the crown to Schlippenbach's Pakistani Pomade? It was there for the first ed., when the record was supposedly still around on vinyl, but then defaulted to Elf Bagatellen in later editions when the earlier record was OOP.

And who the hell is Rene Marie?

I'll get around to buying it eventually, but for now, just ask dumb questions!

[Rob C]

I like the crown/core split. In the first ed., they treated the crowns (or actually, in that ed., five stars) like they now treat the core--as their highest recommendation. Then they started saying that the crowns were a "personal indulgence"--I suspect because they hadn't anticipated how seriously people would take them.

Now they have apparently bowed to the realization that people want a "top 200" or whatever recommendations, but they also get to note some personal favorites that may not strictly belong on a more "objective" list of recommendations.

[Rob C]

Originally Posted by Dan G

Have they restored the crown to Schlippenbach's Pakistani Pomade? It was there for the first ed., when the record was supposedly still around on vinyl, but then defaulted to Elf Bagatellen in later editions when the earlier record was OOP.

And who the hell is Rene Marie?

I'll get around to buying it eventually, but for now, just ask dumb questions!

They don't list PP. They put Swinging the Bim in the Core Collection....

(And I don't think Elf was ever "crowned" though they highly praise it.)

[Jon Abbey]

here's the crown list from the new edition:

http://www.crazyjazz.co.uk/Main/penguincrowns.htm

[Jon Abbey]

is that Rahsaan Roland Kirk disc really one of his best? I have every other release of his from that time period, and I do think it's his peak period, but I never even heard of that one before today.

[Boris Badenov]

41 of the crowns for me.