Is Stanley Crouch staying away because of some forum members?

[Coda]

I was really looking forward to hearing more of what he had to say. I must admit that I only know of him, and have not really read many articles. I did read his ONE post and must say that I came away both impressed with his writing style and his content.

So this tread is a plead to Mr. Crouch to return to the forum. I'm sure there are plenty of folks here who value what you have to say.

[mke]

Ask yourself if JC needs SC so bad we should grovel.

[shrugs]

who is he?

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by mke

Ask yourself if JC needs SC so bad we should grovel.

That just ain't happening.

[Coda]

You don't need to grovel, just not sling insults. Can't we all just get along?

I'm sure every one of you would stop posting here if you were constantly attacked....except Scott (whom I respect) who seems to feed off it.

I bet Mr. Crouch has more insight to share than most of the folks who put him down.

[shrugs]

He sure can pontificate better than the average JC'er!!!

[Captain Hate]

If you noticed what I posted on his "arrival" thread, I welcomed his presence.

[Chris D]

He's too busy punditing away on MSNBC.

Originally Posted by Coda

I'm sure every one of you would stop posting here if you were constantly attacked....except Scott (whom I respect) who seems to feed off it.

Better listen to the man, lightweights.

[Gary Sisco]

How come there's all this concern for Crouch, who hasn't posted in any case, but not for Braxton, who hasn't posted in any case?

Can we possibly give this subject a rest? We need two threads about it?

The world turns, either way, and the cats make music, either way.

[Nathaniel Catchpole]

Well, he's managed to post once without mentioning any of the legitimate criticisms that were levelled at him. No time for people like that?

Which reminds me....


Scott:

Tax expenditures?

[Jesse]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

How come there's all this concern for Crouch, who hasn't posted in any case, but not for Braxton, who hasn't posted in any case?

Word.

This saga has reminded me of Flannery O'Connor's Wise Blood, the novella in which Hazel Motes, a twisted, embittered little man, starts a church of his own, called The Church Of Jesus Christ Without Jesus Christ.

The Stanley Crouch Threads Without Stanley Crouch.

[Ron Thorne]

Wid all due respect, anyone who requires pleads to post on another tread ain't worf my tam.

[bluenoter]

Stanley Crouch was at my neighborhood bookstore tonight promoting his new book of essays, whose theme is "authenticity." (I'd intended to go and try to get a question or two in, but I couldn't make it.) No doubt he's on a book tour.

I browsed through several books of his and noticed that he signed off on one of the introductions with "Victory Is Assured." So that's an old shtick of his.

[gonzo]

which of us hasn't received our share of criticisms on this board. thick skin, thick skin.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Originally Posted by gonzo

which of us hasn't received our share of criticisms on this board. thick skin, thick skin.

RC!

[HLJ]

Soul might have other shit to do.Brother on TV,writing books and articles.It was just posted he was on a Book signing tour cats busy.Some folks have a life not centered around Jazz Corner.Hell I never post on weekends cause I got other shit I'd rather do.Plus Crouch gets paid to be Crouch.He out trying to get paid.Thinking that he's not posting cause someone here hating on him is Bullshit.I bet he dosen't give a flying fuck about what people at the corner think about him one way or another.He'll just keep doing his thing Peace and all that.

[shrugs]

I am sure he will keep doing his thing. It's just unfortunate that some of it will be conceived as the truth.

[Valerie]

Originally Posted by HLJ

Soul might have other shit to do.Brother on TV,writing books and articles.It was just posted he was on a Book signing tour cats busy.Some folks have a life not centered around Jazz Corner.Hell I never post on weekends cause I got other shit I'd rather do.Plus Crouch gets paid to be Crouch.He out trying to get paid.Thinking that he's not posting cause someone here hating on him is Bullshit.I bet he dosen't give a flying fuck about what people at the corner think about him one way or another.He'll just keep doing his thing Peace and all that.

Amen, Baby!!

[bobetterblues]

Originally Posted by HLJ

Soul might have other shit to do.Brother on TV,writing books and articles.It was just posted he was on a Book signing tour cats busy.Some folks have a life not centered around Jazz Corner.Hell I never post on weekends cause I got other shit I'd rather do.Plus Crouch gets paid to be Crouch.He out trying to get paid.Thinking that he's not posting cause someone here hating on him is Bullshit.I bet he dosen't give a flying fuck about what people at the corner think about him one way or another.He'll just keep doing his thing Peace and all that.

Yeah, he's getting paid alright. Like that's the most important thing.

Getting paid trumps everything!

Leave the heavy lifting to me youngin............

[HLJ]

Originally Posted by bobetterblues

Yeah, he's getting paid alright. Like that's the most important thing.

Getting paid trumps everything!

Thats the Americian way.Peace and all that.

[Rob Damen]

Crawjo,

Why don't you actually make a point about Crouch's post instead of simply calling it ignorant and calling people assholes and such? I haven't seen you mount an effective argument yet against what he said or even an argument at all.

Cheers,

Rob

[Dr Dave]

OK. Let's restate the question: Is Stanley Crouch staying away because of some forum members?

Answer: If he has any sense at all, yes. Why should he risk his reputation by entering an arena where he'll be made into mincemeat by a bunch of no-names?

[Valerie]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

OK. Let's restate the question: Is Stanley Crouch staying away because of some forum members?

Answer: If he has any sense at all, yes. Why should he risk his reputation by entering an arena where he'll be made into mincemeat by a bunch of no-names?

agreed, except for one thing: "risk his reputation"?!?!?

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by Valerie

agreed, except for one thing: "risk his reputation"?!?!?

Ahem. Silly me.

[Rob Damen]

Originally Posted by crawjo

Okay, Rob. This opening is about the most obnoxious, insulting way that Crouch could possibly introduce himself to jazz corner. He posts on a public forum, but he addresses only Lois, and speaks of his detractors in the third person, as if they aren't here and participating in the forum. How high and mighty he is, that he deigns to come down from his exalted throne to share his wisdom with us, without actually getting down into the trenches and debating with the people who are making points. This reads like he is writing a private email to Lois, which Lois then posted (in fact, some people mistakenly thought that was exactly what Lois was doing!) So for starters, Crouch either knows nothing about basic online etiquette, or, more probably, he chooses to ignore it through sheer arrogance. Like I said, the man is an asshole.

I'm getting a greater appreciation for Crouch's statements on "hysteria" and "sour letters" as this rambling is no doubt a prime example. Clearly, Lois explained it was a letter sent and addressed to her, which she obviously got permission to post later. So naturally, it reads like it speaks to her and no one else.

Originally Posted by crawjo

Wow. Crouch would have added two more hours at the end of Jazz? What would that have been? Maybe a detailed discography of Wynton's music? Nah, if he did that he'd have to explain why this so-called savior of jazz has actually made so few albums of worth. Here he refers to a "middle brow." What does that mean? Stanley is "high brow?" There's a word for this. Elitism. As for a documentary focusing on the aspects of jazz ignored by Burns, there already is one, "Imagine the Sound." But the avant-garde is not going to get the type of funding and support that Burns gets. Any perusal of which artists sign major record label contracts and which can't makes it clear where the sponsors of the art form feel the money is to be made. And that is with the sort of conservative, traditional, safe music that Marsalis makes, not with experimental or daring work. PBS is not going to air a 20 hour documentray on Braxton, Taylor, Bill Dixon, etc. etc. etc. Then he says that if they want such a documentary, they should work to get it. He specifically implies that those who complain about Burns' film are lazy. I might respond by saying that this is a particularly ridiculous statement for Crouch to make, given that his entire reputation is based on his talk, and his complaining, about other musicians. That's what critics DO! They write things! They agree or they disagree. And many people who didn't like Jazz are doing something about it. They are working at independent labels, trying to promote new music. I imagine that these efforts probably escape Mr. Crouch's attention. So be it.

Oh, man.

The first half about what Crouch would or would not have done with the "Jazz"/Burns film is at best speculative and written in a way that's inflammatory to put it mildly. And you're talking about the worth of Marsalis but have admitted, more than once, that you don't really know his music. Then you change up again: In a prior thread, you said you wanted to hear his music more openly, and then the next minute, in this forum, you turn on the flame:

Which is it?

Furthermore, avant jazz isn't going to get the funding that so-called mainstream jazz does because it quite simply doesn't deserve it. That musical forum simply hasn't had the widespread impact on the critics, audience and musicians nearly to the same degree as more accepted forms. That much is undeniable. And you are incorrect about mainstream labels not producing non-mainstream jazz as at one time Henry Threadgill, Air, David S. Ware, Dave Douglas, Arthur Blythe, et al., had records released at RCA Victor or Columbia during much of the 80s and, in Douglas' case, into the 2000s. Douglas, of all of those, is the only musician of those mentioned who still has a current contract.

Originally Posted by crawjo

This is a particularly brazen assertion to make, given that Marsalis appeared on the cover of Newsweek (or was it Time)? As for cutting Marsalis down, I believe the old boy is more than capable of doing that himself. He's been dropped by labels, his sales have declined...every time I go to the used CD store there are more and more copies of past Marsalis albums that nobody wants. The mainstream media pumped him up as the savior of jazz. Why should anyone be surprised that there would be a reaction to such hyperbole? But hey, I'm sure Marsalis doesn't sweat this stuff. After all, he has access to a "higher quality of female" than other people do.

And both of my box sets of Miles Davis Second Quintet and Miles/Coltrane were bought used from CD Warehouses. All of my copies of Mingus' "Black Saint and The Sinner Lady" and John Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" were bought used. I got Butch Morris box set of "Testament" used. In fact, I had my choice of multiple copies each time I bought most of them. Should I therefore deduce, according to your reasoning, that these guys are the product of "hyperbole" simply because their records fill the racks of used stores?

Originally Posted by crawjo

So what he's saying here is that instead of listening with their own ears and forming their own judgments, they should listen to Greg Osby and Peter Washington.

Again, answered above. You don't know his records, as you've stated, so why should anyone trust you.

Originally Posted by crawjo

Why am I not excited that jazz is now accepted by the same PATRONS OF THE ARTS that have already embraced the opera, the ballet, and the symphony orchestra? Yes, the rich people will go to the concerts and they will listen and nod approvingly at the "culture" of it, and feel enlightened for having done so. Meanwhile, the music itself will continue to expand and grow in smaller venues throughout the United States and around the world.

And people overall, whether rich, poor or middle class, will continue to ignore most of music you hold so dear as they clearly have for the last 50 years. Since you're talking about record sales, you might find a little research to be enlightening here.

Originally Posted by crawjo

This above list does not in any way represent a decent cross-section of modern jazz.

Sure it does. You're just denying that the likes of Steve Lacy, Herbie Nichols Project, Misha Mengelberg, et al, have played there. Either they played there or they didn't. If they did, you argument loses all its fire.

One last thing: Do you recall this little gem from the Crouch thread about his letter: "Actually, that was an excellent and well-reasoned letter by Mr. Crouch. ... "

Oops!

You can tell me to fuck off anytime you like!

Don't be shy!

Cheers,

Rob

[Captain Hate]

I like the way that Rob has a sig line that says "Cheers"; it's very upbeat and nice. I'm thinking of doing one that sez:

Bite my crank,

CH

Think it'll work??

[drumultima]

Heh..

Who the hell is Stanley Crouch?