Drummers, please help me

[Jazzzoline]

Dear drummers of this board, I want your opinion about Drums sets for a 12 y/o kid.

We started to look for used and new sets and yesterday, a guy at the music store told us we should buy a "V-Drums" kit ( components made from rubber like material, plugged to a computer pad which you plug into your stereo's ampli. The price is higher, he said but it's worth it because you don't have to soundproof a room in your house, and you can control the volume of the sound, even wear headphones.

My question was: can a kid learn to play drums properly on those V-Drums, since, for me (and I don't know nothing about drums, playing drums is all about making different effect sounds from how your hit on them (strongly, softly, etc).

The guy said traditionnal drums sets are a pain in the a** cuz they constantly needed ajustments and skin changes and are hard to sell. On this last one, I know he is wrong cuz we've been chasing some used drums for sale and by the time we call, they already are sold.

He also sugests drums lessons for him to learn the right way.
My son has never played drums. Why the drums then ? Because off Larry err.... Nah, because he is the kind of kid who needs to spend LOTS of energy and can't focus long without it. (How I'd like for him to play piano...sighs)

People around told us we were crazy for even thinking about buying a drums set, because of the noise and also because playing drums require lots of practice.

Any suggestion?

[Enforcer]

Jazzzy,

There are lots of considerations when buying your child a musical instrument. It all depends on what your highest priority is and how serious you expect your son to become about the drums. I will agree with the salesman that you will have to endure plenty of noise when your son is playing acoustic drums. There's no way around that. He's going to practice and it's not going to sound very good in the beginning. It will be loud, no doubt about it. He's also right that you should find a good teacher for your son to help him learn how to play the instrument.

But after that, I can't agree with too much else this guy told you. The electronic drumsets can be a cool instrument, but they aren't the same as learning to play acoustic drums. In 1985, there were lots of electronic drums used in popular music. Today, not so much. The acoustic drumset is still the instrument of choice for most styles of music that use a drumset, and certainly for jazz.

Acoustic drums have a touch and nuance that can't be imitated. If your son wants to play them, he's going to have to learn on them, at some point. Playing on pads won't be the same. Learning stick control on acoustic drum heads and real cymbals is a must. And as for the "pain in the ass" of changing heads and learning to tune the drums, well, those kinds of things are part of learning to play any instrument. It's a stupid reason to discourage a kid from playing drums, if you ask me, and a lazy excuse.

I guess you have to decide if the main priority is the noise the drums make around the household (which is no small consideration... ask my parents!), or if it's your son getting really serious about playing them. It's a big investment either way. Speaking for myself, and considering the kind of music I wanted to play as a kid, there would have been no satisfaction in playing a set of pads. Part of what I loved (still do) about the drums is that you hit them and a big sound comes out. Simple as that is, electronic drums don't respond exactly that way. You don't get the physicality of it quite the same way.

Just my 2 cents. Let's hear what Peppercorn Thorne and others have to say.

[chuckyd4]

I'm no drummer, but it sounds to me like this guy got some commission or something out of selling you the electronic "kit". If you can handle the noise (and my brother played drums growing up, so I know something about that) I would say a real kit would be a great help, in particular if he's serious about learning how to play them properly.

A question for you guys would be how big your house is, and/or what your soundproofing options are.

[Jazzzoline]

The place would be the basement, since the garage isn't heated during the winter (and it's cold). The basement is 40 x 40, commercial carpet on the floor and the cement walls are covered with mineral wool and "gyproc". The problem is the ceiling which isnt covered and can see the wooden floor of the upper story. When kids listen to tv we can hear the sound quite well in the whole 2 story house (open areas).
How should be a soundproof drums room?

[Ron Thorne]

Jazzzoline-

First of all,I agree with nearly everything suggested to you thus far.

I've been a drummer since 1956, when I first held a pair of drumsticks in junior high school at about exactly the same age as your son. If he truly has a passion for learning to play drums, I don't think you need to worry about the monetary investment you'll make ... only your ears.

I've been teaching drums and percussion for over twenty years, and there are a few things which I've observed and learned over the years which may be of value to you.

• Find a good teacher, and one who regularly works with young people and seems to have the proper personality and temperament for your son.

• A drumset is not a requirement to begin learning drumming, though it's usually a lot more fun than the alternative, a practice pad. I've taught many students how to read drum notation (music) and some drum rudiments for months (or longer) on a practice pad before they got a drumset.



A couple of practice pads, which can either be mounted on a stand or set on a table. Cost - approx. $20-25

• Buy an acoustic drumset. As Larry pointed out, the touch and sensitivity of an acoustic set is considerably different from one such as the Roland V drumset, which I'm very familiar with. A beginning drummer shouldn't be resigned to wearing headphones to hear his drums and cymbals, in my opinion. It's unnatural. Furthermore, a youngster will tend to continually turn the volume up, likely causing hearing problems. To me, an electronic drumset is for very specific usage and by professionals or advanced drummers.

• Buy the best drumset you can possibly afford for two reasons:

1) It will afford your son the best possible chance to explore his passion and become a better musician. Inferior instruments can frustrate and hinder learning, not to mention having fun. They also tend to break, requiring repair or purchase of additional equipment.

2) Should you decide to sell a drumset for whatever reason, you'll have a difficult time selling a mediocre quality drumset, whereas a good quality one will be very attractive to people such as you, and others.

Among the many drumsets on the market today, I highly recommend the following for quality vs. value. I offer my students the service of assisting them in their purchase, because they and/or their parents are usually overwhelmed by the number of choices and possibilities. Your son's teacher may be willing to offfer the same assistance.

Sonor
Gretsch
Pearl

A young student of mine just received a Sonor Force 3003 drumset for his 13th birthday, which is a remarkably high quality set for the (Alaska) cost ... $949.00-USD (without cymbals), including drum seat and all hardware, pedals, etc. They spent another $700.00 on some excellent cymbals for him. He's set for many years of pleasurable drumming. I saw this very set online today for $769.00 + shipping. Excellent quality! This is the very finest drumset I've played at this price level.



A slightly lesser quality Sonor Force 2003 set can be purchased for about $550.00-USD, and an entry-level Sonor Force 1003 set for about $400.00-USD plus shipping

Gretsch Catalina Birch drumsets are also a very good buy, approx. $750.00-USD for drums only (without hardware) A hardware package would probably cost $175.00-300.00 depending upon the quality.

Note: These are all 5-piece drumsets I've mentioned above. Sonor sets are available with differing size bass drum and tom-toms at the same price. One is called a fusion kit, the other standard or traditional, I believe.

• Good quality cymbals are every bit as important as good quality drums and hardware. They sound significantly better than "cheapo" offbrand ones. They have better resale value should you need to sell them, etc.



Some cymbal brands to look for:

Avedis Zildjian
K Zildjian
Sabian
Istanbul
Constantinople
Paiste

Zildjian cymbals (A & K) are the most widely played, and are of terrific quality. The others are slightly lesser known, but equally fine.

Cymbals are one of the most personal parts of a drumset. What sounds great to one drummer might not be exactly right for another. It's good to pick them at the same time, if possible, to make sure that they all sound good together.

Typical cymbals needed for beginning drumset:

20" or 22" ride cymbal (1)
16" crash cymbal (1)
14" hi-hat cymbals (2)

There are many other options, but the above will serve most drummers perfectly well.

Typical cost of the cymbals above - $700/800-USD

Sometimes a music store is willing to sell you a group of cymbals at a package price, which is discounted.

• It's absolutely true that drumsets can be loud. They can also be almost whisper quiet. That's part of what your son should learn from a compotent teacher, among other things.

• There are many inexpensive ways to partially soundproof a room, from draping blankets and quilts from the ceiling, to installing foam insulation, foam waffle-pattern mattress pads, etc.

I hope this helps, and doesn't further confuse or overwhelm you, Jazzzoline. If you have questions, feel free to ask. If I think of something I overlooked, I'll post it later.

Good luck.

[Jazzzoline]

Should it be adult size drums set?
or junior size?

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

Should it be adult size drums set?
or junior size?

Adult! Those junior kits are just silly.

[Ron Thorne]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

Adult! Those junior kits are just silly.

I couldn't agree with Larry more. A full size drumset is a must.

There are many good brands of drumsets, but I only mentioned three because I realized that I may have already overloaded you with info, and those three makers offer really good quality sets which won't put you in debt. Especially Sonor, in my opinion.

[graypencil]

I third everything Ron and Larry have said on this subject ..( having just just gone through this drill long distance with my daughter-in-law re: grandson gets new drum kit .. with attached teacher and practice pad ..)

the only thing I might add ..if at all possible, try to have a professional /semi-pro drummer go along with you while picking out any equipment.

[Lois Gilbert]

Duke suggested a couple of kits (esp since we also have a 12 year old) and started him with a junior set which we just sold to our neighbors. He suggested Sam Ash makes a good starter set I think it's called Groove Pack. He said unless you're sure your kid is going to stick with it by all means don't buy him anything expensive. He said to also check out Tampa Drum kits

[Ron Thorne]

Sorry, Lois, but with all due respect, I strongly disagree with much of your post.

There's absolutely nothing about a "junior set" to recommend it, except the price for mom and dad, in my opinion. If your son lost interest in drumming quickly, perhaps that's a primary reason ... the mediocre quality of the instrument. If an instrument doesn't play well, it's understandable that a student would lose interest or be frustrated, isn't it? Did you buy a junior drum set for Chris and subsequently sell it? I want to make sure that I correctly understand the implications here.

Further, it's very difficult to determine exactly when a son or daughter has "stuck with it" or made sufficient progress to warrant spending significant sums for a meaningful instrument.

Ron I should have clarified what I was saying, but Chris' set was when he was 9 (I should have clarified that) and now he has a full drum kit. I should have said that... sorry

[jazzy mary]

Jazzzy, you came to the right place! I just bought my 11 year old her first real drum set. Everything Ron says, I echo 100 percent!!

Absolutely get an adult size, acoustic drum set. Drum pads don't really do anything other than what your kid is probably doing already on the couch with a couple of drumsticks--just beating out beats and rhythms. Wonderful, but the kid needs a drum set!


Liz's drum teacher felt that drum pads weren't that useful. He actually recommended her just beating out rythms on the table or couch until we got her drums. I got her drum set off of e-bay. I think it cost around $380 (including shipping). We got it from the e-bay store "National Music Sales". Her drum teacher came to put it together and he thought it was great. He said it was nicer than his first drum set. It's not a "name" brand and that Sonor drum DOES look mighty good--but $800.00? I dunno, I couldn't afford it. But, we're very happy with our set. It's quite nice and her teacher thought it was a great bargain. I'm getting her a really nice amp for her guitar and a nice microphone w/ a stand for her band for Christmas. All that plus 3 different music lessons a week is just about killing me.

One thing, Liz's drums are "rock" drums and they have a bigger bass drum than most "jazz" sets. Is your kid a rocker or a jazz musician? You'll want to consider that when you choose a kit. Liz is rock. Her kit has a bass drum, a snare, two toms, a floor tom, hi-hat, ride and a crash!! Plus a throne. It came with drumsticks--but she likes using the "Carl Allen signature" ones he gave her. It is SWEET! And a groovy wine color, to boot. None of us can go down to the basement without sitting a spell behind those drums. It's great!

One thing for certain, your kid will be thrilled with the drums!! Just be sure to go for an adult, acoustic kit!!

[Enforcer]

By the way, Ron made a point I forgot to about drum pads, but it's worth mentioning again. When it comes to practicing, there's plenty of room in a routine for pads. You need to learn how to play snare drum. That's the most important place to apply the rudiments you learn. And pads are a terrific way to practice sticking exercises and rudiments at a volume you can live with. Your son will still learn on the drumset also, for all the reasons we listed. But that doesn't mean that there can't be time for practicing on a pad as well, especially at times when the volume needs to come down.

Oh, one other thing about noise: They make these rings you can put on the drum heads that muffle them but leave room to still play on the center of the head. I've never owned a set, but I've played on a kit with them and they're pretty cool and retain the feel of a real drumhead. Much quieter than an open drumset.

Mary brings up a good point about drum sizes. They will affect the sound of the set makes. And materials, like the type of wood, or even metal in the case of a snare drum, do make a difference. But by far the biggest factor is the tuning of the drums, the type of heads you choose and the amount of muffling. By tweaking those combinations, you can really make any drumset sound almost any way you want it to. Drumheads aren't cheap, but they're an economical way to really change the sound of the drums. Put coated heads on a kit and leave the muffling off and it will sound "jazzy" regardless of the drum sizes. Likewise, some two ply, clear heads and muffling will make them sound "rock." You can even leave the bottom heads off or mix and match for endless varieties.

[Gentle Giant]

I've been playing drums since I was 15 (1978) and this thread reminds me of the decisions my parents and I made. We bought a cheap used kit that had been in my parents' friends' attic for 10 years. It was made by US Mercury. I fell in love with the red sparkle. The hardware was really cheap - don't skimp on the kick pedal! My bass drum foot has always been weak and I think it's because I didn't learn on good-action hardware. The hi-hats were Zildjians, but the ride was some cheap thing that split in two weeks. I was on the fast-track to rock & roll stardom, so my teacher by-passed the rudiments and taught me variations of the standard 4/4 rock beat. It took me years of self-study after that (with requisite equipment upgrades) to get to my current mediocre ability. But the passion has always remained.

The only other thing I'll add is to go to clinics and concerts by great drummers (any genre), and listen to the masters. Although, when I first got my drum set, my father bought me The Best of Buddy Rich, and it almost made me give up the instrument. What my father didn't mention but I learned on my own was that it's not about reaching that level, it's about understanding what's possible. Whenever I used to ogle those 8- and 10-piece sets in Modern Drummer, I would always remember what Buddy could do with four.

[Jazzzoline]

Thanks everyone who posted in this thread so far. Different point of views have been brought and every of them reach "us" in a way or another.

Let me try to explain why I'm asking all this. I don't want my son to become a professional musician. If he likes music enough, he'll make choices further in his life. So I can't answer if he's going to play jazz or rock, I just have a feeling, if he gets a drumset and sticks, the harder he'll hit the drums, the happier he will be.
In grammar school (I think that's how you call it), kids have to learn to play kind of a plastic flute. I was surprised to hear him play, while his friends couldn't put 2 notes together, he could play a melody with only a few bad notes (his lil fingers couldn't close the holes properly sometimes). Year after year, the music courses would be with that flute. Outside regular school, my son was too much into ski, and later, hockey, for even thinking about private music courses. Lately when I asked if he'd like to learn an instrument, he strongly objected. I wondered why and he told me it was boring. He was talking about the flute. When I tried to have a conversation about how he could learn about other instruments, he kinda get annoyed with the fact he would "have to" follow a strict schedule of practices just like hockey has been. I strongly feel he'd like music for the simple pleasure of doing it with friends his age. He really likes the social things around his activities.
Now, we are looking for private highschools starting next year. Most schools have music as part of the regular program and music obligatory as part of "para scolaire" program. That means, they have to be in a band or ensemble.
Now I think: if my son starts school with a bunch of fellows who already know an instrument and he get stuck with a plastic flute, he'll be done with music forever! Music will simply become a pain in the a**.
So we talked about instruments and which he'd like... drums came to mind.. that's all.

[jazzy mary]

Jazzzy, have you asked your son what he's like to play?? Maybe you should be shopping around for a saxophone?

Whether one's child becomes a professional musician, music lesssons are one of the greatest gifts you can give a child. And, if your child shows an aptitude and interest, then it's really essential. I cannot believe HOW WELL my daughter is playing guitar and piano. It's a joy for everyone. My older daughter isn't the musician my younger daughter is--her interests are elsewhere--but she still takes piano lessons and it's still very, very good for her.

If you can get your child to try piano, it's really the best and it lays down the foundation they really need. Guitar is fabulous because then they can play all the hip songs they love. The problem is that guitar is really, really, really HARD!!

[Jazzzoline]

Yes I did, at first he was reluctant (see the plastic flute story in previous post). Then I named a few instruments. His eyes ligntened to some of them, saxophone and drums. But you have to know my son is more of an hyperactive type of kid. He NEEDS to spend energy all the time. Moments of concentration must be mixed with moments of energy spending activities.

[jazzy mary]

The only reason I mentioned saxophone is because it's a smaller, quieter instrument than the drums. Maybe cheaper, but I'm not sure about that. And, because of the plastic flute story, I thought maybe he'd like a wind instrument. Yiou can't go wrong with drums though--everyone likes to play them!!

[Gentle Giant]

There's more to drumming than playing a trap kit, you know. Get him a conga. Not as loud, and much more portable and cool.

[drumultima]

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

Yes I did, at first he was reluctant (see the plastic flute story in previous post). Then I named a few instruments. His eyes ligntened to some of them, saxophone and drums. But you have to know my son is more of an hyperactive type of kid. He NEEDS to spend energy all the time. Moments of concentration must be mixed with moments of energy spending activities.

Heh, sounds like me.

When I was in 4th or 5th grade, my parents bought my first (and only) drumset-- a Perl Export. I do reccomend these for first time sets-- it's a pretty nice set overall and fairly inexpensive. It kept me pretty occupied, but that's mainly because I'm in a really musical family and was probably more enthusiastic about music. I do say though, I kind of wish I had played saxophone as a kid instead, but I like where the drums have led me. I'm assuming that the plastic flute he had to play was a recorder, which doesn't surprise me because it's pretty standard in general music education (I did that too, though I liked it). If he was doing well on that, then he definately either has the ears or the brains for music. I would say that saxophone could possibly be a good idea for him. However, I do think drums uses more energy. The only thing is that he may get bored and want something more melodic. In that case, there is always mallet percussion to go to. That's the route I took at least.

In terms of other stuff you mentioned in your first post, most of it's already been answered but whatever. Don't buy the electric set, even if it is softer, and especially if it costs more. Acoustic is the way to go. Sure, it's louder, but my parents have been living with it for 7 or 8 years now, and they're not bothered by it at all! It's important to be able to play an acoustic instrument well before going to electric-- kinda like how you should learn to crawl before you learn to walk. Except I learned to walk first, but that's a different story ;D

Also, drum lessons are good to have. It's also important to get the correct stick technique early on, so you don't have to fix it later. Once you get used to a bad stick technique, fixing it is haaaard.

So yeah, that's what I have to say so far. Keep your options open for the time being. Let him try out some stuff. I have a feeling drums are the way to go, but just see what he leans towards.

Hope this helps!

[Ron Thorne]

Jazzzoline, in a PM you sent me you mentioned that your son was ambidextrous and asked me if I felt that would cause him problems. Absolutely not, in my experience. In fact, it should be a wonderful asset to be able to play with each hand equally well. I'm right-handed, and have spent every year since 1956 working on my left hand and arm, trying to catch up with my right hand and arm.

A drumset is setup differently for left-handed and right-handed drummers, but in your son's case, he could probably set it up either way with no difficulties I can forsee. Since it's more common, I'd recommend setting it up as for a right-hander, though. For your information, most right-handed drummers play the bass drum with their right foot, the hi-hat with their left foot, and place the snare drum to the left of the bass drum pedal, the primary ride cymbal to the right side of their bass drum. Here's a link with some more information, should you decide to purchase a drumset.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by drumultima

Heh, sounds like me.

But my son has a few qualities too.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by Ron Thorne

Jazzzoline, in a PM you sent me you mentioned that your son was ambidextrous and asked me if I felt that would cause him problems. Absolutely not, in my experience. In fact, it should be a wonderful asset to be able to play with each hand equally well. I'm right-handed, and have spent every year since 1956 working on my left hand and arm, trying to catch up with my right hand and arm.

A drumset is setup differently for left-handed and right-handed drummers, but in your son's case, he could probably set it up either way with no difficulties I can forsee. Since it's more common, I'd recommend setting it up as for a right-hander, though. For your information, most right-handed drummers play the bass drum with their right foot, the hi-hat with their left foot, and place the snare drum to the left of the bass drum pedal, the primary ride cymbal to the right side of their bass drum. Here's a link with some more information, should you decide to purchase a drumset.

Read on the link you mentionned:
"Plus, the drum set is like a motorcycle plunked right down on the stage: It's big, loud, and has a lot of color and metal."

I like that.

I asked my son again about what he'd choose among the things I know he craves for for a long time. He is now very settled on a drum set and he wants to follow lessons. Now I have him on my tail : "mom... will you please buy me... " sheeesh.

Thanks a lot for the info Ron.

[Ron Thorne]

You're very welcome, Jazzzoline. If I can help in the future, please ask.

Of course, "Cousin Larry" is much closer to you ...

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Jazzzoline

Now I have him on my tail

When he's busy playing his new drums, just know that you have a standing offer to take his place there...

On his third cup of coffee and ready to conquer the world,
Larry

[Ron Thorne]

Larry shoots ...

[Jazzzoline]

Here some news.
My son got a drumset for x-mas. He was very happy about it. The only rule we set for him was that he can't play while we are asleep (Even if our bedroom is on the second floor, and the drum is in the basement, we can hear it quite well). My son got half an hour with the drum seller. Then he got his first lesson last week and one more this week. The guy who teaches him is a professional (he's part of a band who plays in a tv program) and seems to be very patient with kids. Plus, he doesn't look "too serious". He gives homeworks: 15 minutes practice a day of the beats he showed him.. then he can play how he likes. The last lesson, he showed him the music sheets and how to read them. It sound promising.

[jazzy mary]

Excellent!!! I was wondering if you did! What kind did you get him?

[Jazzzoline]

Originally Posted by jazzy mary

Excellent!!! I was wondering if you did! What kind did you get him?

Peavey

2 toms, 1 floor tom, one bass drum, one snare, 1 hi-hat, and 1 crash ride.

It'll need a skin change for better sound but it's enough for my kid right now.

[jazzy mary]

Sounds fabulous!!