Anybody Here Read Finnish?

[Pete C]

It struck me a while back that the names of some basic breads from 2 very different areas have very similar names, and I've been trying to see if there's any connection, or if it's mere coincidence. The breads are Italian ciabatta & Indian chapati. The only thing I've found on the web that seems to discuss the two together is in Finnish. We have a bunch of folks from nearby countries, but I don't remember any JC Finns. Anyway, here goes, just in case:

Chapati, ciabatta, chapata ym.
Leipäkauppaan on 1990-luvulla tullut muutamia uutuuksia, joiden nimet tuntuvat menevän sekaisin sekä valmistajilla että kauppiailla.

Itämaisia leipiä
Kaikkien intialaisessa ravintolassa syöneiden tuntema leipä on chapati, hyvin hienoksi jauhetusta täysjyvävehnästä leivottu rieskan tyyppinen, kohottamaton leipä. Se paistetaan kuin muurinpohjaletut meillä, kuumalla rautapannulla, ja käytetään kuin mikä tahansa voileipäaines tai sämpylä Suomessa. Leivällä on helppo kerätä kokoon sormilla syötävää ruokaa lautaselta tai jopa ammentaa ruokaa suuhun kuin lusikalla. Tämän leivän nimi kirjoitetaan joskus muodossa chapatti. Sana tulee hindin kautta sanskriitin kielestä, sanoo sanakirja.

Toinen intialaisissa ravintoloissa tarjottu leipä on naan, joka joskus kirjoitetaan englantilaisittain nan, yhdellä aalla. Se on pyöreä, lehtevä tandooriuunissa paistettu vehnäleipä. Sen nimen voi kirjoittaa reilusti suomalaisittain naanleipä, ilman yhdysmerkkiä.

Lähi-Idästä taas on kotoisin meilläkin suuren suosion saanut pita, joka on yksinkertaisesta hiivataikinasta tehty pyörylä. Sen rakenne on taskumainen, eli uunissa noustessaan se pullistuu ontoksi taskuksi, joka on helppo täyttää erilaisilla salaateilla, lihalla tms. herkuilla. Leivän nimi on peräisin vanhasta kreikasta, jossa petta tai pitta merkitsevät leipää, kakkua tai piirakkaa.

Välimeren alueen leipiä
Joskus vuoden 1995 paikkeilla alkoi Helsingissä saada italialaistyyppistä, oliiviöljyä sisältävää valkoista leipää, joka litteät, suorakulmaiset pitkot muistuttavat lintallaan olevaa tohvelia. Siitä tulee leivän nimi ciabatta, joka on tossu italiaksi. Intialainen chapati ja italialainen ciabatta pyrkivät usein sekaantumaan leipäkaupan omissakin nimilistoissa.

Ciabatta-leivän alkuperää ei tunneta. Useimpien teorioiden mukaan se tulee Pohjois-Italiasta, Trentinon tai Veneton suunnalta ja leipätyyppi olisi vieläpä varsin uusi, vasta 1960-luvulla syntynyt. Kaikkialla Italiassa se leivotaan pitkään nostattamalla. Varsinkin Roomassa käytetään leivontaan myös muuta kuin jauhoja ja hiivaa, esimerkiksi oliiviöljyä ja silputtuja oliiveja. - Italian ulkopuolella nimi kirjoitetaan hyvin monella eri tavalla, varsin usein mm. Pohjoismaissa ja Saksassa muodossa giabatta ja Suomessa chiapatta.

Joissakin kaupoissa on nykyisin kotimaista chapata-nimistä leipää, jonka myyjät väittävät olevan espanjalaista alkuperää. Kyseessä ei ole "aito" espanjalainen leipä, sillä sana chapata on vain espanjalainen tapa kirjoittaa italian ciabatta eli tossu. Useissa espanjalaisissa resepteissä onkin otsikkona "chapata - italialainen leipä". Espanjan kielessä on kyllä sana chapata, mutta sillä ei ole tekemistä leivän kanssa, se tarkoittaa 'päällystettyä', esim. 'viilutettua'.

Editoitu 11.4.2003

http://www.kolumbus.fi/rahola/sanastot/c.html

[gnhrtg]

Pete; likewise, I believe, reads some mean Finnish.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by gnhrtg

Pete; likewise, I believe, reads some mean Finnish.

Thanks; I sent likewise a PM.

[likewise]

Just received your PM, Pete. Gotta run now, but translation coming up ASAP.
(Sorry to say, the text doesn't seem to include the kind of information you're hoping for, though; being more like a general consumer presentation of different types of bread available in Finland.)

[Pete C]

Likewise, thanks--don't kill yourself with a translation; a quick summary will do, unless there is something buried in there that fits the bill. Are you originally from Finland?

[Sergio Zamora]

A quick google finds that ciabatta means slipper. I asked an indian co-worker if chapati meant anything, and he says he just knows it means that kind of bread.

[Pete C]

There's probably no linguistic connection, since there was likely little commerce between Italy & India ages ago, but the homophony and the fact that they're both basic in their ingredients started me thinking. Many Asian words for bread come from the Portuguese "pao" (as in Chinese "bao"). Vietnamese "banh" may come more directly from the French.

[Sergio Zamora]

My indian co-worker just gave me an update

chapati — the name of the Indian whole-wheat tortilla came through Hindi, but its origin is Tamil cappaTTai, from cappa 'thin, flattened out'. It may be coincidental, but it also looks similar to the Tamil word câppiTu 'eat'!

http://www.penkatali.org/tamilwords.html

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by Pete C

There's probably no linguistic connection, since there was likely little commerce between Italy & India ages ago, but the homophony and the fact that they're both basic in their ingredients started me thinking. Many Asian words for bread come from the Portuguese "pao" (as in Chinese "bao"). Vietnamese "banh" may come more directly from the French.

I don't have my facts in front of me, but I would have imagined there'd quite a bit of trade by way of intermediaries. Maybe not so much as the modern era, but some. Then there was the whole Marco Polo thing. I mean, shit, if he went to China, he must have stopped by for a quick bite on the way in India.

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Pete C

Anybody Here Read Finnish?

I just finnished reading Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke. 782 pages! Whew!

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

I just finnished reading Jonathan Strange and Mr Norrell by Susanna Clarke. 782 pages! Whew!

When you finish The Kalevala in the original, then you can talk.

[Mike Schwartz]

I'm working on it...
It's either some insider trading info, classified nuclear secrets, or information about a starchy food substance;-)

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

I mean, shit, if he went to China, he must have stopped by for a quick bite on the way in India.

I believe there's some evidence--or at least learned conjecture--that Marco Polo never went to Asia, but that he was a fabricator who wrote his memoir in prison based on other sources. My favorite account in his book is about the place where a traveler is welcomed by being offered the wife of one of the locals. I've traveled a lot, but I haven't found that place yet.

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Pete C

When you finish The Kalevala in the original, then you can talk.

Yeah, that's going to take a while. I'm still working my way toward The Eustace Diamonds, and that's in English.

[John L]

Do you really know Finnish, Pete? I'm impressed. That is a hard language. How did you learn it?

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by John L

Do you really know Finnish, Pete? I'm impressed. That is a hard language. How did you learn it?

John, I don't read Finnish--that's why I was looking for someone to translate. But as long as you're here, is there any connection between khleb and club sandwich?

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by Pete C

John, I don't read Finnish--that's why I was looking for someone to translate. But as long as you're here, is there any connection between khleb and club sandwich?

If the club sandwich is made from a loaf of bread there is.

[likewise]

A bread thread? Well now, this takes me way back... (NB, severe nostalgia warning!)
Born and raised in a tiny peasant village on the Finnish West coast, few things evoke early childhood memories for me like the smell of freshly baked bread. (Hey, I was practically born under the round loaves of rye bread that my mother stored on a horizontal pole under the ceiling!) Not to mention the smells of my father's old fishingboat - tar and petrol...

Sorry, wrong thread! Here's the translation, more or less...
(What's the deal here, Pete? Are you in the language or the bread business?)



Chapati, ciabatta, chapata et cetera.

The 1990’s saw some newcomers in the bakery shops’ assortment, the names of which often seem to get mixed up, among producers and shop-keepers alike.

Eastern type bread
Anyone who has eaten in an Indian restaurant knows chapati, a non-rise bread baked from finely ground whole wheat. The chapati is baked in a hot iron pan and eaten just like ordinary sandwich bread. The chapati can also be readily used as a spoon, to pick up food from the plate. An alternate spelling form is “chapatti”. According to the dictionary the word comes from Sanscrit, via Hindi.

Another type of bread typical of Indian restaurants is naan (alternate spelling “nan”). This is a round wheat bread, baked in tandoori ovens.

Pita, a round bread from the Middle East, made from yeast dough, is another recent addition to the Finnish bread assortment. Rising in the oven, the pita “pocket” is ideal for various vegetable or meat fillings. The name pita derives from the ancient Greek words for bread, cake or pastry: petta, pitta.

Bread from the Mediterranean region
Around 1995, an Italian style white bread with olive oil, was introduced in Helsinki. The flat and angular bread looks a bit like a slipper, ciabatta in Italian – hence the name.

The origin of the ciabatta is not known. The ciabatta was born as late as in the 1960’s - in Trentino or Veneto in Northern Italy, according to most theories. Today it is baked all around Italy. In Rome, especially, olive oil and e.g. onion is added to the ciabatta dough. Outside Italy, other spelling forms are frequent: “giabatta” in Scandinavia and Germany, “chiapatta” in Finland.

Today, some shops also sell a domestic version named “chapata”, allegedly of Spanish origin. This bread is not Spanish at all – “chapata” is only a Spanish spelling of the Italian word ciabatta. In Spanish recipes, this bread is, in fact, often called “chapata – an Italian bread”. The word chapata does exist in the Spanish language, but it has nothing to do with bread, meaning “coated”.

[Jimmy Cantiello]

I'm a confirmed breadaholic. If I have a choice between some good bread and dessert, I'd rather have the bread. Below is one of my favorite local bakeries that turns out wonderful bread.............

http://www.chabaso.com/bread_list.html

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by likewise

(What's the deal here, Pete? Are you in the language or the bread business?)

In a certain sense I'm in the language business, but I'm especially interested in the language of food. I always find cultural transmission of food terminology interesting.

I believe shorba is a Persian word, which ultimately gave the name of soup in many places including India, but also sherbet & sorbet, which originally was a kind of cold, thick fruit soup which was predates the development of freezing technologies that gave us the iced sherbet we know.

When I was at a Turkish restaurant with Cem we had dumplings known as manti. I mentioned that the Korean word for dumpling is Mandoo, and the Afghans call their version Mantoo.

Khleb is Russian for bread, so I was wondering whether club sandwich is a corruption of khleb rather than deriving from some kind of club. However:

"Most food historians agree that the club sandwich was probably created in the United States during the late 19th/early 20th century. The where & who behind this classic sandwich remains a matter of culinary debate. The most popular theory contends this sandwich originated in men's social clubs, most notably the Saratoga Club in Saratoga, NY."

http://www.gti.net/mocolib1/kid/food...ches.html#club

[Pete C]

And thanks a million for the translation, Likewise.

[likewise]

De nada, Pete.

BTW, the Finnish word for bread is "leipä" (lay-pah), clearly related to Russian khleb.

[Pete C]

I'm sure that bread baking in Finland is a leipä of love.

[John L]

Doh!

I sort of forgot that you were the one who started the thread, Pete...


A linguistic relationship between Khleb and club sandwich seems rather far fetched to me. Your given expanation sounds more plausible. Of course, the whole thing might have come from the khleb served at the Sands Club in Wichita. No?