Turntables and receivers

Root Doctor · November-16th-2004, 10:00 AM

I had to replace my receiver and bought one without turntable connections. While I can play vinyl by running things through one of the video connections, I'm unable to record stuff to cassette. Am I doing something wrong, besides having bought the kind of receiver I did?

Kevin Bresnahan · November-16th-2004, 10:05 AM

I'm surprised that you find the playback acceptable through a line input with a turntable. Turntables require a pre-amp and this pre-amp also adds EQ. Any time I've been forced to play an LP through a line in, it sounds thin and trebly. There are inexpensive phono stages out there... even a wicked cheapie at your local Radio Shack. Get yourself one of these and you'll be all set.

Later,
Kevin

Root Doctor · November-16th-2004, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Bresnahan

I'm surprised that you find the playback acceptable through a line input with a turntable. Turntables require a pre-amp and this pre-amp also adds EQ. Any time I've been forced to play an LP through a line in, it sounds thin and trebly. There are inexpensive phono stages out there... even a wicked cheapie at your local Radio Shack. Get yourself one of these and you'll be all set.

Later,
Kevin

Thanks, Kevin. Unfortunately, with a steady listening diet of garage bands and lo-fi blues, thin and trebly is usually as good as it gets.

Kevin Bresnahan · November-16th-2004, 10:56 AM

Radio Shack does have one: Phono Pre-amp.

$25

Later,
Kevin

Lore · November-17th-2004, 04:06 PM

So what would be the argument against bypassing all that pre-amp hoo-hah and just going with a nice old Califone or a similar model with the speaker built in? (I'm looking into getting one of these.)

A friend of mine has one of those and everything on it, including (especially!) old and beat-up 45s, sounds just fantastic.

Kevin Bresnahan · November-17th-2004, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lore

So what would be the argument against bypassing all that pre-amp hoo-hah and just going with a nice old Califone or a similar model with the speaker built in? (I'm looking into getting one of these.)

A friend of mine has one of those and everything on it, including (especially!) old and beat-up 45s, sounds just fantastic.

You'll get no argument from me. What you like is what you like. That's one of the beauties of audiophilia.

Myself, I use my audio system for stereo & multi-channel music (SACD & DVD-A) as well as home theater. Putting another player in my listening room just for vinyl wouldn't make sense.

Quite honestly, if I were to add a turntable to my HT system, which also does not have a phono input, I would simply buy the Denon DP-29F, which has a phono pre-amp built in... although I am fond of the Music Hall turntables. Well, if money were no object, I'd get a Music Hall and a nice phono pre-amp.

Later,
Kevin

DWBass · November-23rd-2004, 09:31 AM

Personally I would get one of these and at some point add another turntable and you'll be able to create your own jazz mix tapes/cd's.

Root Doctor · December-3rd-2004, 10:56 AM

Kevin,

I ended up getting a pre-amp from Crutchfield, which was not only cheap but in stock. Had the sucker in about two days, and all is swanky once again. Thanks for your help on this.

Cheers,

Joe

Kevin Bresnahan · December-3rd-2004, 02:07 PM

Joe, I'm glad to hear you got it working. As for me, I took my own advice and ordered one of those Denon DP-29F turntables with the built-in phono pre-amp. Now I have to build or buy a wall-mounted shelf. With the subwoofer thumpin' away, there's no way I'm putting this TT on a floor stand.

Later,
Kevin

Lore · December-8th-2004, 11:39 AM

OK, another (probably silly) question:

As I look into these old turntables by Califone, Newcomb, and others, sometimes they refer to the speaker, other times to the amp + an associated wattage. Is there a difference? Or are these different terms for more or less the same thing.

Thanks!

Gary Sisco · March-30th-2005, 08:44 AM

Kevin -- Since road trips are apparently pretty much out of the question this year, I've decided to upgrade the stereo system, instead. A phono stage is one of the requirements. My amp is more than old enough to have a phone stage but the signal is still of a much lesser amplitude than that of most CDs, so burning becomes a problem, fidelitywise. At least it did with my Philips burner, which has a factory set max on the record gain control, which they say is 0 db but it clearly somewhat lower than that, and also, I like to make recordings as hot as possible without distortion. Anyway, a phono stage is necessary. If you were going to buy a nice one that isn't for the likes of Bill Gates but isn't from El Cheapo Lectronics, either, what model(s)would you recommend? If you have a link, I'd appreciate it but it's far from necessary.

I'm also in the market, therefore, for a new CD burner. Re our last phone conversation about them, please give me a call when you have a moment to talk about it.

Depending on the bottomline those two create, I may upgrade the upstairs speakers as well, and replace my ancient (but much liked) Advents with another set of Bose 501s like I have for the main house system. It didn't used to matter much until my tastes started growing more extreme, leading to Bronwyn's creation of the "upstairs music" category. So if I'm going to be listening upstairs as much as I am, I'm going to upgrade the upstairs speakers, and box up the Advents carefully and stow them, in case we ever win the megabucks or something and get to finish off the basement.

I learned my lesson when I idiotically shitcanned my second cassette deck when I bought the Philips burner that very quickly crapped out: Don't get rid of stereo gear anymore. If I'm not using it right now, I might be some other time. So the Advents get boxed and protected. They've served me very well for a long time, now.

Kevin Bresnahan · March-30th-2005, 11:28 AM

Gary, Music Direct has a nice selection of phono pre-amps, from a $79 Creek to a $5,995 ASR Basis Exclusive. If I were to choose among the "cheapies", I would look at the Music Hall or the Sumiko Pro-ject. Both run $119. The Creek models are cheaper but I don't know too much about their stuff. I know the other two names.

The thing is, if you have a phono input on your receiver or pre-amp, you really don't need one of these things. If there's a problem with the signal level coming out of your current turntable, chances are it's the TT (or better yet, the cartridge), not the phono stage of your receiver. It's too bad shrugs ain't around. He's a bit of an expert on this stuff.

As for recording level for CD-R recording, the last thing you want in the digital domain is "peaked signals". Digital clipping produces nasty-sounding, headache-inducing crap... much like a lot of today's current CDs. This recent phenomena of max-ing out the amplitude on many of today's rock CDs is producing some of the worst CDs ever. If you buy any remastered CDs today, be sure you keep your original CD just in case. Chances are, you'll sell the remaster. Record CD-Rs below 0 dB and if the results are low, crank up the volume on the receiver. You'll get better audio.

As for audio-only burners, the latest favorite of many of my buddies is the HHB BurnIt line. They are easy to use, reliable and can use "standard" CD-R blanks, not the "audio-only" blanks. The HHB CDR830 BURNIT seems to be available for under $500, no chump change, but it should be your last unit for a while.

The fall-back would be a Tascam CD-RW750. However, given your desire to convert some of your cassettes over to CD-R, the Tascam CC-222mkII would be perfect. I don't know where to find this model cheap. I'd have to search around. However, I think I found a local audio shop up your way a while ago that sells Tascam. eBay is where Chris Dupre found his Tascam and that might be best.

Kevin

Chris D · March-30th-2005, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Bresnahan

The fall-back would be a Tascam CD-RW750. eBay is where Chris Dupre found his Tascam and that might be best.

Kevin

I love my CD-RW750. Gary, this unit is NOT cheap, but it does have true audio-level controls. This allows you to get equalized input for CD and LP tracks. In my setup -- right now an NAD CD player and Music Hall MMF-5 turntable with a Goldring mm cartdridge, the CD player is hotter. One can push the edge right to distortion or leave a lot of head room, but consistently in either case.
The one thing about the recorder -- an entry-level studio unit -- is that it's TOTALLY manual and does all recording in real-time. It does use standard computer blanks, which is nice.

Gary Sisco · March-30th-2005, 04:25 PM

Thanks, Kevin. Sounds to me like Chris's model is along the line of what I'm looking for.

Chris -- Have you had any problems with yours? And do you stack it with the rest of your stereo gear? Apparently, with the Philips, though they didn't tell anyone in the manual or anywhere, you aren't supposed to stack them, like your other components. So, I'm wondering about that as space is limited, but otherwise it sounds like the thing for me. I don't care about the double-speed copying. I have no need for it, really. If I need to copy something faster than real time, I can do it on the computer. I'm more interested in having the burner for making comps than copying CDs. Also for transferring tape to CD-R.

Sounds about right, though. Thanks.

I'm not too worried about the price, since I've decided to do the upgrade. I'll use the bread I normally spend on my jazz roadtrips, which I can't make this year. Six of one, half a dozen of another, moneywise, very likely. The upgrade will likely be less expensive, actually, than my annual New York run. That ain't cheap, either, if you're there to have fun. (And why else would I be there?)

But, since i'm working for myself, now, and learning that what that means more than anything is that I don't get days off, much less time for roadtrips, I might as well maximize the hi fi 'bout the place where I *do* spend all of my time.

Chris D · March-30th-2005, 04:54 PM

That was my thinking in getting the better turntable, Gary. If I'm not going out, I'd better make staying in worthwhile!

I have the Tascam on the top shelf of an entertainment unit that's open in the front and back. It does run fairly hot.

I too had a Philips burner that crapped out. I just don't think they were built that well.
The Tascam is built like a TANK!

Gary Sisco · March-30th-2005, 04:57 PM

Cool. Most likely, sold. Could you do me a favor and look to see if the vents are on the up side or the down? I'm going to have to stack it, but hopefully, it will fit on top of something else for which ventilation isn't as crucial (like the Philips piece of shit, dammit).

Chris D · March-30th-2005, 04:58 PM

I'll check it tonight, Gary.

Gary Sisco · March-31st-2005, 06:38 AM

It occurred to me that the Philips was far from cheap. I paid 300 bucks american for mine and it didn't last a full 18 months. Nothing cheap about that.

Kevin -- Thanks for the good links. I just now got to follow up and read the specs.

Chris D · March-31st-2005, 01:08 PM

Gary,
The Tascam is vented on top. It's vented across the width of the recorder, about the back third of the equipment.

Kevin Bresnahan · March-31st-2005, 05:43 PM

Gary, I think I'd look at the HHB CDR830 BurnIt. It has become a favorite of a lot of my friends and it looks like it's only about $70 more than the Tascam. The place I buy most of my CD-R supplies from, American Digital, has it for $499. One of the biggest benefits is that it doesn't use SCMS (Serial Copy Management System) so if you make a mix CD and try to make another copy for another friend, the Tascam would force you through a second D to A and A to D conversion. The HHB would make a straight digital copy (if you're other CD player has digital output capability).

I would get the Tascam if that $70 is a deal-breaker. It has been highly regarded for a while. A year ago, I never even heard of this HHB unit, then someone started a thread over at Organissimo and several people came on saying how great this HHB unit is. Someone over on Steve Hoffman's forums has said that Tascam's customer support is atrocious, going so far as to say that they don't even stock replacement parts for gear that they're selling. It might not matter because Tascam's quality is reportedly very good but still... it might be worth checking into this HHB.

Kevin

Chris D · April-1st-2005, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Bresnahan

One of the biggest benefits is that it doesn't use SCMS (Serial Copy Management System) so if you make a mix CD and try to make another copy for another friend, the Tascam would force you through a second D to A and A to D conversion. The HHB would make a straight digital copy (if you're other CD player has digital output capability).Kevin

Not true for the Tascam. (I realize I have the RW700, not the 750.) As a "professional" unit, it doesn't have SCMS either, unless you want to switch it on. I can make digital copies of digital LP burns, for instance.

sonic1 · April-1st-2005, 11:16 AM

A friend of mine has this puppy:

I never thought it made that much of a difference. But the sound is perfect. There is NO background noise at all-except what is on the vinyl.

Beautiful creature. But I'll never be able to afford it.

Kevin Bresnahan · April-1st-2005, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris D

Not true for the Tascam. (I realize I have the RW700, not the 750.) As a "professional" unit, it doesn't have SCMS either, unless you want to switch it on. I can make digital copies of digital LP burns, for instance.

Chris, I downloaded the Tascam RW750 users' manual and I couldn't find that anywhere, hence my assumption that it had SCMS. Also, HHB advertises that it doesn't have SCMS so it would make sense for Tascam to advertise that as well. If the RW750 doesn't have SCMS, I can't find that anywhere.

BTW, Chris, I don't think Gary would have any problems with a Tascam, it's just that a couple of my buddies are really raving about their HHB units right now. I think he'll be OK either way.

Kevin

Gary Sisco · April-28th-2005, 08:18 AM

Hi, guys -- I ordered the Tascam RW750 today from/through a shop in Burlington where the guys know me. I like keeping bread in the tribe if possible. Thanks for the advice and commentary. Someone tell me what SCMS means, please.

I'm also bidding on a set of Bose 501s to replace my old Advents in the music room. Madly, Bose doesn't make them, anymore. I've always preferred them to the 901s, their alleged top of line (I don't like the artificial equalizer they use; too much sound processing), and certainly to their lessers or their "lifestyle" crap. The bidding is up today. If I don't score them, I'm going for a used pair MB Quart 2LC204s, a guy has and is holding for me til the 501 bidding is done.

Depending on which speakers I end up buying, I may still have enough left over for a pre-amp for the turntable.

Chris D · April-28th-2005, 01:15 PM

Hope that Tascam works for you, Gary. As I said above, I'm really pleased with mine.

SCMS is the copy-protection system, Gary. It's what ensured in my Philips, for instance, that a CD-R I made from a digital source could only be copied again in analog. It's also the system that requires the more-expensive "music-only" CD-Rs, something the Tascam, as a professional recording unit as opposed to a consumer product, does not need.

Gary Sisco · April-28th-2005, 07:01 PM

Cool. Thanks, Chris. And something I don't need as well.

Brian L · May-2nd-2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Bresnahan

Gary, Music Direct has a nice selection of phono pre-amps, from a $79 Creek to a $5,995 ASR Basis Exclusive. If I were to choose among the "cheapies", I would look at the Music Hall or the Sumiko Pro-ject. Both run $119. The Creek models are cheaper but I don't know too much about their stuff. I know the other two names.

Kevin

Creek is an English company and their gear is generally simple, no nonsense and first rate in quality. I don't have any experience with their phono preamp, but I do own a Creek headphone amp, which I like a lot. Their integrated amps in particular have a wonderful reputation among audiophiles looking for budget equipment -- well, if you consider $1500 for an integrated amp to be a "budget" purchase. Guys that spend gazillions on audio gear would consider Creek "entry level." Most normal people would consider Creek high end.

At any rate, I wouldn't hesitate to acquire a Creek product, just on their general reputation. But the price for their least expensive phono preamp is more like $225 for the OMH-18.

The cheaper one listed at Music Direct is a plug-in phono board, meaning it needs to be installed internally in an amp or preamp. I have no idea whether these plug-ins can be used with non-Creek amps.

Chris D · May-3rd-2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian L

The cheaper one listed at Music Direct is a plug-in phono board, meaning it needs to be installed internally in an amp or preamp. I have no idea whether these plug-ins can be used with non-Creek amps.

It can't be used with anything but Creek amps.

Doc Martin · May-4th-2005, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian L

Their integrated amps in particular have a wonderful reputation among audiophiles looking for budget equipment -- well, if you consider $1500 for an integrated amp to be a "budget" purchase. Guys that spend gazillions on audio gear would consider Creek "entry level." Most normal people would consider Creek high end.

I have a Creek 5350SE Integrated Amp, which I use with a Rega Jupier CD player an a pair of B&W Nautilus 804 speakers, which everybody who hears it raves about. Everybody except an Audiophile friend who calls it Mid-Fi!

Gary Sisco · May-5th-2005, 08:55 AM

Hey, Doc -- I've been wearing your shoes for years!

Received my new used 501s yesterday and hooked them up in the music room.

Ahhh.....