Keith Rowe / John Tilbury - Duos for Doris

[Brian Olewnick]

I guess enough people have it by now and, spurred on by Sergio's considered review (!) on the eai thread, I thought some discussion might be warranted.

I've already posted a fairly lengthy review at http://bagatellen.com/archives/reviews/000069.html

I've listened to this a good 10 or 12 times in the last couple of weeks and really think it's a high water mark in recent improvised music. I'm curious to hear the comments of others.

[Gary Sisco]

I like it a lot, but haven't been able to listen all the way through without interruptions except once, so I'm holding off on commenting til I've heard it as a piece a few more times.

Fucking life interfering with music again.

[ryans]

i need to get on the ball and order this. semesters almost done so i should have some money and work soon...

[frankpop1]

i have yet to be tempted to this cd since many jc reviews are overly generous to eai music as of late.

BUT WHO IN THE HELL IS DORIS?

[Steve Reynolds]

Doris is Tilbury's mother - who passed away a couple of days before the recording was made

[Armando]

Brian has some good insider info in the piece he wrote at Bagatellen (link in the first post of this thread). It's a great review.

I'm still just getting into this disc. It definitely requires your complete attention.

[walto]

"I've listened to this a good 10 or 12 times in the last couple of weeks"

I like this set quite a bit, but it's very long, and, I think, has some dull patches as well as some piano stuff that I think doesn't quite work. (Not that you'd blame anyone who's mom had just died.) Anyhow, 10 or 12 times is probably about as many times as I hope to hear it in (what's left of my) life.

I'm sure I'll quite enjoy it each time, though: it has some marvelously beautiful segments. As beautiful as anything I know.

[Sergio Zamora]

I've been listening to this for a while now. It's an overwhelming listen, not only due to its epic length, but because it is so demanding. But what a rewarding experience it is!

(just a couple of caveats: I'm a sucker for Tilbury's playing. I wasn't always, but the more I listen to his improvisation and the more I listen to Feldman compositions, the more I love it. The second caveat is that my review, as usual, may go over the top at times, but my appreciation for this disc is sincere)

Disc 1

It starts with a murmur, a little scratching, a low hum. Almost quiet. Slowly, the gentle drones of the the table-top guitar start building into a mass of sound. A pluck here a scratch there. More drones. Is that a fan? Minutes pass, and Mr. Rowe is taking his time. Where's Tilbury? A sound appears suddenly and stays for only a short instant. It sounds like the processed wails of an injured animal or more likely the scratching of the guitar strings. Still no Tilbury. I'm starting to get anxious, but I'm glued to the sounds that Rowe is making.

Finally, a single piano note. Then again. And again. The sound of those first few notes seem to linger in the air forever. At some point, when only the ghost of the reverb is left, the notes merge with that alien drone until the two literally become a single sound.

The drone becomes louder, the piano becomes painfully somber, almost frightening. No, not almost. I'm actually feeling something akin to fear. As I wait for each note, as I wonder where it will go. The interplay become more violent, like an argument taking place in someone's dream. I can do nothing but sit and listen as the argument enfolds.

Then all is calm again. From here on, the collaboration is much more subtle. Tilbury is almost absent for a bit, and reemerges very slowly. Rowe provides a staticky wash of sound to which Tilbury responds only sparingly. This is a resting point, an opportunity to recover and think about what I just heard. Until around the 40 minute mark.

Suddenly, it's chaos.

Tilbury is pounding, no, hammering the piano. It's powerful and painful to hear, yet I'm completely immersed. Again, that strange fear-like feeling starts creeping in. Rowe responds in kind. His aggressive howls become more and more unearthly. The sounds twist and turn, creating thundering sound clashes. I'm in the middle of the sea, in a violent storm. The chaos is overwhelming.

Then the storm dies again. And again, all is calm, and another recovery period. These may be the most difficult moments. As I am left to ponder my own emotions, I apply my full attention to what is happening. I want to hear everything. Every time the piano key is touched or a string is pulled. Every minute variation of the alien drone. Everything seems to matter. I have the feeling that if I don't absorb that single note now, it will be lost forever.

There's something beautifully indescribable about the communication between these two masters. It's empathic, not telepathic. They don't so much read each other's minds as they actually feel each other musically. This is not instinct, but rather years of playing together.

Yet, oddly enough, the individual approaches to the process of making music are so different. For Tilbury, each sound is an individual with its own life, its own existence. Each note lives and dies in a Feldmanian world. Each note is to be savored and experienced on its own. Rowe seems to be more concerned with the totality of the process, with the creation of a complete world of sound, and most importantly with the reflection of the reality of making those sounds. Together, they seek the truth.

Yet what's even more indescribable is the emotional upheaval this music makes me go through. I'm left exhausted, drained. Everything around me seems more alive. It's amazing how in all its supposed abstraction, ultimately this music is so wonderfully life-affirming. Whether or not this had to do with the emotional state of Mr. Tilbury during its making, I won't speculate. I can't imagine what this was like for the musicians. I only know what their music does to me.

That's the first disc. About 70 minutes of stunningly beautiful music. One would think it could have been edited here and there just a bit, but then again, the narrative of life is not always coherent, and one doesn't choose the beginning and ending points. They just happen.

[Brian Olewnick]

Fine post, Sergio. I agree on the stunning dramatic quality that emerges from this purportedly "abstract" music. Before they began that piece (the first one played that day), they agreed that it would be about an hour long. This, I'm sure, allowed them to have an understanding of the scale they'd be working on, hence the "ability" to take the appropriate time to make a given statement and the general knowledge of how it might possibly fit into the overall structure.

Keith's writing some notes on the session which eventually (I think?) will appear on the Erst site. Won't give it away here, but they contain some pretty fascinating insights into his creative process.

[Sergio Zamora]

Btw, in case anyone hasn't realized what my avatar is, this is the cover of "Duos for Doris":

[walto]

Really?!? And here I thought it was an unrolling roll of...well...you know.


BTW, I prefer disc 2.

[frankpop1]

hmmm

i like this disc, and after listening for awhile, then i ask what is the question....?

is this new improv ground in the lineage of charlie parker on dial, miles & coltrane & beyond.

alternatively, is this new ground from the field of amm, viva, niblock, voice crack, etc

maybe this thread is related to carvegio's hands, dach, weather sky .....

new hi h20 mark??? i cant see it, but then im nearsited. it seems someone sets a new hih20 mark every week.

[ryans]

just ordered from erstwhile so have not had a chance to listen but would like to know if mr. Rowe's notes on the session will be posted anytime...

[Jon Abbey]

fp,

"is this new improv ground in the lineage of charlie parker on dial, miles & coltrane & beyond."

yes. quite a few generations down the road, but yes.

"alternatively, is this new ground from the field of amm, viva, niblock, voice crack, etc"

what's viva? niblock's drones are pretty unrelated, to my ears. AMM, obviously. Voice Crack, not so much either.

"maybe this thread is related to carvegio's hands, dach, weather sky ....."

the closest touchstones for Duos for Doris, for different reasons, are Fine (recorded in the same room), Weather Sky (mostly because it's Keith's other superlative statement of recent years, not because the two paintings hang side by side over my fireplace), and Hands of Caravaggio.

"new hi h20 mark??? i cant see it, but then im nearsited. it seems someone sets a new hih20 mark every week."

I've made my thoughts clear on this in the interview just posted of me on Stylus (stylusmagazine.com), towards the end. excerpted Q and A:

"Stylus: You’ve mentioned that the recent Rowe/Tilbury record Duos for Doris is the Erstwhile release you’re most proud of -- edging out my personal favorite, Weather Sky . What sets it apart from the other releases for you? Do you have any other particular favorites among your label's catalog?

JA: Well, for me, it’s obviously a combination of the music on the project intertwined with the circumstances surrounding it. Weather Sky was my favorite up until recently: not only is the record a masterpiece, but also I think that duo (Rowe/Nakamura) is the strongest live combination in this music. They will be the core of the AMPLIFY 2004 festival, closing each night as part of a different quartet. I find their music so powerful live that I sometimes am on the verge of passing out, and can be affected for hours afterwards. Also, Weather Sky was recorded in France on the same day my father passed away in New Jersey, and, for me, he was in the room with them while they recorded, guiding them to create such a brilliant piece of music.
Duos for Doris is more than just an amazing record, though, it fills a historical gap. Rowe and Tilbury had never before played as a duo, and probably never would have if I hadn't worked on the parties involved for two years. I think It’s most likely both Keith and John's strongest improvised work (I think John’s For Bunita Marcus is his masterwork). It’s just such an assured, accomplished, mature, perfect statement, deceptively simple, yet revealing new layers on every listen, even fifty or sixty times through. I believe it’s the best freely improvised music recording I’ve ever heard, and my part in making it happen is probably the accomplishment I’m most proud of thus far in my life, personal or professional.
Maybe it comes down to the fact that despite how great Weather Sky is, I think Keith and Toshi are capable of creating an even better record. In fact, I’m fairly sure they will, I’m releasing a second studio disc from them next summer (as yet unrecorded, but all three of us know where the bar has been set). "

Ryan,

"just ordered from erstwhile so have not had a chance to listen but would like to know if mr. Rowe's notes on the session will be posted anytime..."

yes, this is my fault, I've been preoccupied with other things, and I need to formalize his thoughts a bit before I post them (he wrote them in a somewhat stream-of-consciousness manner), he's also working on them still. they'll be posted at some point though...

[frankpop1]

Duos for Doris is more than just an amazing record, though, it fills a historical gap. Rowe and Tilbury had never before played as a duo, and probably never would have if I hadn't worked on the parties involved for two years. I think It’s most likely both Keith and John's strongest improvised work (I think John’s For Bunita Marcus is his masterwork). It’s just such an assured, accomplished, mature, perfect statement, deceptively simple, yet revealing new layers on every listen, even fifty or sixty times through

my what exciting times we live in. every week there is a new release on the level 'kind of blue' or 'love supreme'

talk about reynolds hyperboles.

let's see the mere subtraction of a 3rd artist results in keith and john's strongest accomplishment, cept for bunita.

i mean i recommend 'doris' it is a good solid 4 star cd, BUT this is a double cd..........and with erst, you really get treated well in this case:

2 CDs)
$14 US each ($20 for double CDs) postpaid within the United States!!!! COOOL!


but...& of course we can always include the hook ...as beautiful as ANY amm release...

[Vince Kargatis]

I've had a hard time getting into this record, myself. I think I'm more on the Walter axis here. I've found I need to be, more than most records in the genre, in the mood to hear it; I need to be in its neighborhood - it doesn't drag me in so much. At times I find it too languorous and, dare I say it, precious-sounding - whether this is due simply to trying my at-listening-time too limited patience I haven't decided. I wonder if the record simply has an emotional foundation I'm not likely to be in tune with these days. Haven't given up, of course, nor do I think I've even given it the time it's due. Just reporting my status... :)

[Gary Sisco]

I like it very much, but I have to be able to really listen undisturbed for at least the length of one of the CDs. I prefer CD2 to CD1, though they are both very good.

Vince -- This one won't work well in your random player mode? :-)

[Jon Abbey]

fp,

"my what exciting times we live in."

that is true.

"every week there is a new release on the level 'kind of blue' or 'love supreme' talk about reynolds hyperboles."

you might want to cut down on the drugs, or at least switch to better ones. this record and Weather Sky are the only ones I've put on any sort of exalted level in years, and I'm far from alone with my opinions on either of those.

"let's see the mere subtraction of a 3rd artist results in keith and john's strongest accomplishment, cept for bunita."

well, no, that's obviously very simplistic. if you'll notice, AMM records are all concert recordings (correct me if I'm wrong, Brian), whereas D4D was consciously recorded as a double CD in front of basically no audience (Brian and me). Keith and John knew that this was most likely their one and only chance to play as a duo, and combining that with the world climate at the time and John's mum passing 2 days before, created a feeling of gravitas in the air that the two followed through on. what's more, Keith had been planning beforehand for months how best to "frame" John's playing with his own.

look, maybe this record doesn't connect with you as deeply as it does me. that's cool. I'm just telling you my own opinion about it.

[Brian Olewnick]

AMMMusic was studio, as was (to the extent it was really AMM) the ECM Pueblo date.

[Jon Abbey]

ok, so all AMM recordings involving Tilbury have been concert recordings.

[Brian Olewnick]

It's an interesting question, I guess, whether or not having been there and "involved" in the session colors one's views. Maybe it has to, dunno. I know that I still listen to 'Doris' regularly, still hear new things, new relationships all the time. And, while I think I probably know the sections that Walt and Vince find less than interesting, I hear them more as the "ebb" of the ebb and flow of the session and no less fascinating for that.

[frankpop1]

QUOTE]look, maybe this record doesn't connect with you as deeply as it does me. that's cool. I'm just telling you my own opinion about it.[/QUOTE]

and i thought that i was just expressing mine in response to brian's 1st post. u started a whole that thread that teased reynolds about his hyperbole. i just did the same.

i even stated i liked the cd but suggested there is hyped. 3 or 4 cds in a short time release have been grand standed pretty hard and i suggest maybe a little reservation or reflection from the ersts and now their minions. i even recommended readers to buy it. $20 for two cds. where can u go wrong?

and then for you to shoot the predictable and uncreative drug shot at me was a hypocritical, shitty and uncalled for thing to do.

I've ... I'm curious to hear the comments of others.[

that's who and what i started my response to....

better start to behave better or i'll alert uli..

[Jiveman]

Brian--when is "ebb" good;& when is it bad?Tough question!

[Brian Olewnick]

The only verbalized, preconceived aspect of the session was that Rowe and Tilbury agreed on the approximate length of the improvisations. I think this was probably of crucial importance in that it let them know the scale of what they were about to do, giving it a very unrushed feel. As a listener, it allows one to understand that for every peak there has to be a valley. a) you can't have just peaks and b) you begin, perhaps, to better appreciate the valleys. There's no sense of "shooting" for the peaks either, just a quiet confidence that they almost inevitably appear.

[ryans]

so i went for a walk and when i get back guess whats in my mailbox?? haven't had a chance to get a good listen but so far sounds amazing. jon, on brian's review in bagatellan you said you saw this duo play in london live :"nice review, Brian. one point you touch on obliquely is that Rowe is very conscious of whether he's playing for an audience or making a record (this would be an example of the latter, as you and I don't exactly constitute an audience). I'm seeing this duo in London Saturday night, and I'll be very curious to contrast the show with the CDs (I'm guessing anyone reading this will have the same opportunity within the year, as most Freedom of the City shows seem to be released on Matchless or Emanem). "

how was this and is it expected to happen again? I thought it was only for the record that they played as a duo? Any word on it being released? thanks a ton. ryan.

[Jon Abbey]

ryan, they didn't end up playing as a duo, Tilbury invited Prevost to join them, so it was a trio AMM set. as I said, everything from the Freedom of the City fests seems to be released, so I'd guess it'll be out on Matchless at some point.

[Uli]

Originally posted by frankpop1
QUOTE]
better start to behave better or i'll alert uli..

superb move, franki! hehe

[blawless]

Just got this. Very nice! A few things really stand out for me. First is the cellophane. Although I was able to loosen only a corner, I immediately detected that this was very high-quality wrapping. It has the shininess, crispness, and snap that I think most CD purchasers will agree are getting more and more difficult to find these days. Thinner, flimsier plastics may be more cost-effective, but are they an improvement? I say no. I am looking forward to loosening the rest of this shimmery jacket--maybe a paperclip would work?--and pondering it more fully. I know I won't be disappointed.

Second, I am especially impressed by the jewelbox, which, remarkably, is the same size as that for a single CD. Believe me on this--I actually tested it by putting it edge-to-edge against several others in my collection. (As Quincy famously used to exclaim at the moment of truth: Why, Sam, it's an exact match!) You simply wouldn't guess it has two discs inside. (Verifying this, however, will have to wait until I slip off the attractive wrapper completely and open the box.) Perhaps the savings realized by using this slim packaging enabled the music company to invest a bit more in the nice cellophane. I'm only speculating, but if this is the case, I think it's a magnificent trade-off. My kudos to the cost/benefits boys at Erstwhile.

Finally, I feel I need to point out that the cover of the CD does not have any words. Yes, you heard me right: no artist names or title are shown, much less a parental advisory warning sticker. To learn who performs on this album and its title, you need to turn to the spine, or to the back. Of these two locations, I recommend that you turn to the back, where a pleasant surprise awaits. Namely, the bowler hat that appears in the painting on the front is actually repeated as part of the title. In other words, the packaging artist has whimsically rotated an image of the hat to stand in for the letter D in the word Doris! (I confirmed that the word was "Doris," and not "Poris," my first guess, by checking it against the text on the spine. I also consulted my American Heritage to be absolutely sure. "Poris" does not appear, but you may be intrigued to learn that Pori is a city in Finland, chartered in 1564 and with a population of 78,993.) Although you may be thrown, as I was, by not seeing the words on the front of the CD, I found that it's really not too difficult to turn the album over and read the backside. By no means should this dissuade potential purchasers. Just chalk up this clever dampening of reader expectations to a mischievous "avant-garde" sensibility, and you'll probably do OK.

Having read several reviews of this acclaimed, precedent-setting album, I can wholeheartedly concur: this is a very welcome achievement. The weight, shininess, and even color scheme (especially if you, like me, happen to adore the contrast of sulfur yellow and black) seem exactly right. My only quibble is that the CD has *two* spine labels, with the title and artist names identical on each--which might lead one to shelve the album on the wrong side. I believe this redundant-spining is a fairly conventional way of labeling CDs, a fact I again verified by checking out some of the other albums in my not insignificant (9 and counting!) collection. But, as I noted above, it really isn't all that taxing to turn the package around in the event the CD isn't facing the right way. This very small reservation, ultimately, should not detract from the many rewards this album is sure to offer adventurous purchasers.

[Brian Olewnick]

blawless has taken disc appreciation to hitherto unseen levels of acumen! I'll never unwrap my CDs the same way again! Can't wait until he gets to the actual discs themselves--not the printed side but the clean, reflective audio side. I'm pretty certain he should be able to glean the musical content from a simple but close examination of the "grooves" thereon.

[Captain Hate]

And I thought I had appreciation for the aesthetics of cd packaging...

Speaking of the musical content, a few posters have complained about the length of the first disc requiring a large investment of uninterrupted time, which I share. Just this morning my enjoyment was marred by the interruption of two telemarketers. Hands of Caravaggio, even though it is a continual performance, has "false" track points throughout the disc; why not on this? I understand the concept that the piece is meant to be listened to from beginning to end and that the earlier parts set the stage for that which is to come; but so was classical music and there are track seperators from movement to movement.

btw, I assume that the promos that were sent out for review by Wire and our favorite "distinguished critic" did not have any id's for the song titles, since my copy has them embossed on the disc and printed in the jacket.