The Charles Mingus Thread

crawjo · January-9th-2005, 01:20 AM

I checked, and as far as I can tell we haven't had one. Tomorrow I intend to go on a Charles Mingus bender at the cd store, picking up a lot of the stuff (mostly on Atlantic) that I haven't yet gotten around to. I'm going to get Blues and Roots, Pithecanthropus Erectus, and a few others.

A couple of questions:

What do you guys think of "The Clown?"

And

Are the digipack reissues significantly superior to the earlier CD reissues?

Jesse · January-9th-2005, 01:31 AM

Do you have Let My Children Hear Music?
I can't respond to your 2 questions, owning neither.

Jon Abbey · January-9th-2005, 01:36 AM

The Clown is good, but I prefer all his other Atlantic 50's/60's discs: Antibes, Oh Yeah, Blues and Roots, Pithecanthropus Erectus, with the first three being essential.

crawjo · January-9th-2005, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jesse

Do you have Let My Children Hear Music?

No..my Mingus collection is pretty limited. I have:

Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus (my favorite so far)
Ah Um
Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus
Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
The Town Hall Concert (the one with Dolphy that includes "So Long, Eric"

I plan on getting the Great Concert of Charles Mingus from BMG, as I have a few free cds I can cash in.

Dan G · January-9th-2005, 01:49 AM

You might as well just get the Atlantic box - it is probably just as cheap as buying all the individual discs, which you'll probably end up doing eventually.

Squaredancecalling Steve · January-9th-2005, 03:04 AM

My all-time favorite jazz musician.

I LOVE "The Clown," but to a large measure because I was a HUGE fan of the narrator, Jean Shepherd, who hosted a late-night NYC radio show when I was growing up, and who introduced me (and many of my contemporaries) to haiku, Kurosawa, Mingus, beatnik poetry and other cultural riches. He was probably the greatest storyteller I've ever heard. Besides the title cut, though, you get some prime Mingus -- Haitian Fight Song, Blue Cee, Reincarnation of a Lovebird, and -- on the digipack -- two stellar bonus tracks recorded at the same time but released with other tracks on another album.

Much as I love The Clown, there are others I would get before that. Jon's selections are similar to mine -- Blues and Roots ROCKS, probably Charles' most accessible album. Mingus at Antibes is a great album with Dolphy, Booker Ervin, Ted Curson, etc. And New Tijuana Moods is a delicioiusly beautiful early album. Pithecanthropus Erectus is a year earlier than Tijuana Moods, almost as good, and Oh Yeah! is also very good, on a par with The Clown.

But I would definitely get Changes One! This is a document of the wonderful group with Don Pullen on piano and George Adams on Tenor that gave birth to the Pullen/Adams band. This album (and Changes Two) is a very special period in Mingus' career that you should hear. No five man band has ever sounded bigger!

The late albums, Let My Children Hear Music and Cumbia/ Jazz Fusion, are different animules completely, and are not universally embraced by Mingus fans. I love them both, but would wait on getting them. (Brian will tell you that Let My Children Hear Music is THE one to get. And the thing is, with Mingus you can hardly go wrong, so starting almost anywhere is bound to be rewarding.)

Mingus Dynasty and West Coasting are two other stellar albums that should be mentioned.

Besides The Clown, Mingus did two other collaborations with spoken word -- A Modern Jazz Symposium & Weary Blues (the latter with Langston Hughes) -- that are not without their moments.

A couple more of note: the two-CD Revenge, which is of his last (or next to last) concert with Dolphy released by Sue Mingus (there are many boots of this) and the early quintet album with Max Roach that has a formative version of Haitian Fight Song and an earlier arrangement of Foggy Day.

If I had to prioritize my top five recs:

Blues and Roots
Changes One
Antibes
New Tijuana Moods
The Clown

Squaredancecalling Steve · January-9th-2005, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

If I had to prioritize my top five recs:

Of those you don't have, course. The five you have are indispensible.

Jon Abbey · January-9th-2005, 03:12 AM

I was just talking about the Atlantic discs. I've never thought the seventies stuff holds up to the best of the earlier stuff, including the Changes discs and Let My Children Hear Music. I think a lot of it probably depends on when you came to his music; I came to it in the late eighties whereas Steve and Brian were listening to him when some of these records came out in the seventies.

crawjo, the other earlier one I really love besides the ones you have and the Atlantic ones is called Jazz Portraits: Mingus in Wonderland on Blue Note. and I agree you need New Tijuana Moods also.

John L · January-9th-2005, 03:31 AM

The Atlantic Box is definitely the way to go. No filler, all thriller (not counting the interview CD that you probably won't want to hear more than once).

As for "The Clown," I would say that it is still essential, even if it doesn't quite reach the heights of Blues and Roots, Antibes, or Pithecanthropus Erectus.

Blues and Roots is probably my single favorite Mingus disc. Antibes and Mingus Presents... are not too far behind.

Ron Thorne · January-9th-2005, 04:00 AM

How can you ever have too much Charles Mingus in your collection?

I'm delighted and privileged to have an autographed copy of Sue Mingus' biography,Tonight at Noon. Here's a link to the official Charles Mingus website.

Tom Storer · January-9th-2005, 05:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

the other earlier one I really love besides the ones you have and the Atlantic ones is called Jazz Portraits: Mingus in Wonderland on Blue Note.

I'll add a vote for this one, a fantastic live quintet date with substantial work-outs for Booker Ervin and John Handy and some great trading of eights, fours, whatevers between Mingus and Richmond. The regular pianist at the time--Jaki Byard?--couldn't make it so they recorded with Richard Wyands subbing, a very solid but more staid pianist, hence there's less of the characteristic Mingus envelope-pushing feel. But it swings like crazy, the horns are out of this world, and Mingus's bass playing is square and center.

Richardo Caerleoni · January-9th-2005, 07:04 AM

Mingus - Oh Yeah! Strange that this thread should come up now...last night I played "Mingus at Antibes" for the first time in over a year...and now I can't take it off!

That was a hell of band...with Booker and Eric...and Ted Curson was right up there...much better than I remember...what happened to HIM?

RC

PS...Also like the early Quintet with George Barrow/Eddie Bert/Mal Waldron...although no Dannie Richmond... who, to me, was Mingus's "right hand".

Steve Reynolds · January-9th-2005, 07:54 AM

agree with Jon

Nostalgia on Times Square from the Wonderland album is, ah, wonderful

East Coasting is the overlooked gem from the era

Dr Dave · January-9th-2005, 09:06 AM

Steve: Where did you grow up, man? I used to listen to Shep every night at 10:15 on WOR in New York. When I was 17 my parents took me to the Limelight for my birthday to see the Great Man in person. Memorable.

I don't own a whole lot of Mingus, which is foolish of me, I know. I have "Black Saint And The Sinner Lady" which is, I think, kind of a throw-in-the-kitchen-sink mess (where did that flamenco guitar come from?) but still a pleasure to listen to. I mostly listen to "Mingus Ah Um" which is on Columbia and therefore not part of this discussion so far. That one rocks, too, no? And I bought "Oh Yeah" specifically for "Eat That Chicken," because Mingus loved Fats Waller and I love Fats Waller, too. I have never been able to sit through more than three minutes of the "interview" with Neshui Ertegun, though.

MRS · January-9th-2005, 10:38 AM

Don't forget to round off your Candid collection as well, if you can find the other two these days. . .and get Antibes before you move another muscle.

Brian Olewnick · January-9th-2005, 11:07 AM

Might be easier to suggest which Mingus albums to avoid, as there are only a handful, imho. "Mingus Moves", from '74 or so, is pretty dismal. There's one with a Japanese big band that also falls flat. Pete's not very keen on "Mingus and Friends in Concert" but, while I'd agree it's highly uneven, the best tracks (the ones with Ammons and Weston included) make it worth having. I'm also not as big a fan as many are of the two Changes records. Never warmed to Walrath and both strike me as a little bit on the cold side.

But definitely get "Mingus Presents Mingus", LMCHM, Ah-Um, Mingus Dynasty, Wonderland, Antibes, etc.

John L · January-9th-2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Reynolds

East Coasting is the overlooked gem from the era

Yes! By all means, don't overlook this one.

kh1958 · January-9th-2005, 11:27 AM

Mingus Moves was recorded in 1973. It's not as great as Changes One but it still a superb record, including the fantastic Opus 3. Walrath is an outstanding trumpeter who has released many fine recordings on his own. The Changes records could not be hotter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

Might be easier to suggest which Mingus albums to avoid, as there are only a handful, imho. "Mingus Moves", from '74 or so, is pretty dismal. There's one with a Japanese big band that also falls flat. Pete's not very keen on "Mingus and Friends in Concert" but, while I'd agree it's highly uneven, the best tracks (the ones with Ammons and Weston included) make it worth having. I'm also not as big a fan as many are of the two Changes records. Never warmed to Walrath and both strike me as a little bit on the cold side.

But definitely get "Mingus Presents Mingus", LMCHM, Ah-Um, Mingus Dynasty, Wonderland, Antibes, etc.

Frisco · January-9th-2005, 11:35 AM

We were just enjoying the DVD "Live @ Montreux" last night. The band with Pullen, Adams, Walrath and Richmond. "Sue's Changes" is a masterpiece and has a piano segment and solo by Pullen that is out of this world! But the Mingus that I seem to come back to, time and time again, are Tijuana Moods, Blues and Roots, Mingus Presents Mingus, Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus, and The Great Concert.

Richardo Caerleoni · January-9th-2005, 11:38 AM

VIEWS ON THIS???
A long time since I've heard it.

RC.

Brian Olewnick · January-9th-2005, 11:42 AM

RC, I think the piano album is fantastic! Among other things, you get to heat the original improvisation* that eventually became "Adagio ma non Troppo" on LMCHM.

*Always wondered how much was really an improv.....

kh1958 · January-9th-2005, 11:48 AM

The essential Jazz Workshop recordings are the following, in my opinion.

1955--Mingus At the Cafe Bohemia
Quintet Plus Max Roach.
1956--Pithecanthropus Erectus
1957--The Clown
East Coasting
A Modern Jazz Symposium of Poetry and Music
Tiajuana Moods
Mingus Three (with Hampton Hawes)
Revelations
1959--Mingus Ah Um
Mingus Dynasty
Mingus in Wonderland
Blues and Roots
1960--Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus
Mingus
Pre-Bird
Mingus at Antibes
1961-Oh Yeah
Tonight at Noon (also 1957)
1963-The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady
Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus
Mingus Plays Piano
1964--Town Hall Concert
The Great Concert of Charles Mingus
Mingus at Monterey
Right Now
1965--Music Written For Monterey, Not Heard
My Favorite Quintet
1970--Reincarnation of a Lovebird
1971--Let My Children Hear Music
1972--Mingus and Friends in Concert
Live in Chateauvallon
1973--Mingus Moves
1974--Mingus at Carnegie Hall
Changes One and Two
1975--Mingus at Montreux (DVD)
1976/77: Cumbia and Jazz Fusion

Richardo Caerleoni · January-9th-2005, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

RC, I think the piano album is fantastic! Among other things, you get to heat the original improvisation* that eventually became "Adagio ma non Troppo" on LMCHM.

*Always wondered how much was really an improv.....

Brian ...MANY THANKS...I remember it when it came out but it sort of passed me by...I was then more interested in Mingus's group work. Will Def Ck it out.

RC.

Point...thinking of piano...no-one's mentioned "Money Jungle" with Max and Duke - which I know is "mixed", but the title track etc. is pretty striking...in more ways than one!

Jason Bivins · January-9th-2005, 12:23 PM

Crawjo, if you've got the cash, GET THE BOX!! You will thank yourself for years to come.

me wag · January-9th-2005, 01:29 PM

So how is Tonight At Noon? It is the one Atlantic Mingus that I don't have.

kh1958 · January-9th-2005, 04:35 PM

It consists of two selections from the Clown sessions, the wild Tonight at Noon, and a complex piece supposedly composed for dancers, Passions of a Woman Loved.

The rest of the LP is from the Rolard Kirk sessions that produced Oh Yeah, including a beautiful Jimmy Knepper ballad feature Invisible Lady, and the definitive performance of Peggy's Blue Skylight.

In a word, it's fantastic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by me wag

So how is Tonight At Noon? It is the one Atlantic Mingus that I don't have.

Pete C · January-9th-2005, 04:38 PM

The reissues of Clown & Oh Yeah have all the Tonight at Noon material.

Brian Olewnick · January-9th-2005, 04:43 PM

I'm not sure what form it's available in these days, but another session I like a lot is the one originally issued on Prestige as a 2fer under the title "Reincarnation of a Lovebird", a 1970 session with Eddie Preston, McPherson, Bobby Jones, Byard and Richmond.

Pete C · January-9th-2005, 04:57 PM

I'll be a naysayer on Let My Children Hear Music. I just don't think, in general, Sy Johnson's big orchestrations do much for Mingus's music, and some of the early third-streamish compositions aren't really the best of his work. I also find the faux classical sounding Adagio pretty silly. I do like Bobby Jones's Jordanian tone, though.

I don't think the piano album is especially memorable. Nor do I think Moves is that great, though it has great moments. And Brian is right, I think Mingus & Friends is genearlly a mess.

That was one of the first jazz concerts I ever attended, at age 16. Mingus was already my favorite jazz artist, and probably still is. I first heard my brother's copy of Mingus Dynasty when I was about 14 and fell madly in love with it.

I was fortunate to see Mingus a number of times--the Philharmonic Hall return, a couple of times at Carnegie (including the one with the sax jam, when Bluiett was in the band, as well as a show with the totally forgettable Ronald Hampton on trumpet), as a guest with Rollins, the Adams-Pullen band a number of times at the Village Gate, and the band with Ricky Ford and Neloms (& Danny Mixon before Neloms).

The Adams-Pullen band was one of Mingus's great groups, and I agree that Changes One is the highlight.

There are so many highlights.

"Short" list of favorites:

East Coasting, Wonderland, Blues & Roots, Ah Um, Dynasty, Presents, Antibes, Black Saint, Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus, everything from the 1964 European tour, Changes One.

I like Tijuana Moods, but I'm not as enamored as some are.

Ultimately, every Mingus album has something to recommend it.

Pete C · January-9th-2005, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

I'm not sure what form it's available in these days, but another session I like a lot is the one originally issued on Prestige as a 2fer under the title "Reincarnation of a Lovebird", a 1970 session with Eddie Preston, McPherson, Bobby Jones, Byard and Richmond.

I have it on an import CD (Musidisc/Accord), confusingly titled "Pithycanthropus Erectus" (sic). It has four tracks from the LP set-- Pithycanthropus Erectus, Reincarnation of a Lovebird, Peggy's Blue Skylight, Blue Bird. It's missing two short tracks that were on the LPs, Love is a Dangerous Necessity, and I Left My Heart in San Francisco.

It wasn't originally issued on Prestige, it was originally issued as 2 albums on the America label in France.

Edit: All 6 tracks are on a Candid CD, apparently readily available: