Bayar-Djll in OFN

[Nate Dorward]

For once an OFN polemic/essay actually worth reading, rather than just fuming over:

http://www.onefinalnote.com/columns/2005/everyone/

Maybe I just like it because they cite me (the phrase "the unavoidables" is from the opening of a review of a couple Ernesto Diaz-Infante discs). Thoughts, anyone? I'm still digesting it.

[Derek Taylor]

Thine ego doth overflow I dig this essay too, though it’s a bit of a difficult slog in places. Djll is a helluva nice guy & a damn interesting trumpet player IMO. Oh, and Odwalla juice is still among the most delicious on the planet.

[Derek Taylor]

Mulling about this a bit more after re-skimming it. Some very salient points, though I’m not sure how well the Gold Record paradigm fits with the current CDR community even with the slight tweak in focus from "reproductions" to "releases". The “circular business card” quip is a great analogy & I really appreciate how the co-authors consider both sides of the coin- something that’s been suspiciously missing from a few recent OFN op/eds (Djll’s parting shot is pretty funny too- hopefully there isn’t an amassing mob of malcontents preparing an effigy in his name).

Nate, curious if your Diaz-Infante dig resulted in the desired embargo; I’m assuming it did?

[Nate Dorward]

I've received one more disc with Diaz-Infante as a sideman in a quartet (which is OK) but nothing as a leader or duet partner, thank heavens.

The funny thing is that the review they cite ended up with lots of recriminations from the poet John Kinsella because of a passing swipe at him in it, & Dan eventually deleted his name from the review, but Diaz-Infante himself took it in stride. -- Nowadays I'd add Jeff Shurdut to my list of people responsible for free-jazz spam.

[Derek Taylor]

I’ve been lukewarm on Shurdut: admire his gumption & sincere glad-handing, if not always the result. And he deserves props for providing a conduit for Rob Brown’s first solo disc.

[Uli]

I love this insider stuff.

What do you guys think about Mwanji?

I think he is one of the more talented writers of OFN.

[mke]

Originally Posted by Uli

I love this insider stuff.

What do you guys think about Mwanji?

I think he is one of the more talented writers of OFN.

That lazy bum? I hear he hands in all his pieces late.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by mke

That lazy bum? I hear he hands in all his pieces late.

Oh shit, that's what got Crouch fired.

[Jesse]

It's cool with me, but I have no clue what you two scribes are carrying on about, nor could I finish the OFN piece. It's incredibly heremetic, in the insiders talking at insiders kind of way.

Carry on!

[Jon Abbey]

I couldn't come close to finishing it either.

[Derek Taylor]

Uli, my facetious meter’s busted so I can’t tell if you’re jiving. I like Mwanji’s writing & enjoy reading about his wide-ranging tastes.

How so, J? Where’s the mystery? What’s so hermetic about the essay? Other than the scholarly citations & slightly windbaggy prose that bog it down IMO. Actually, I think the hermetic thing is one of Djll’s big points. The whole ‘scenster’ phenomena is so patently insular & cabalistic that it’s self-defeating. A look-at-me mentality when even the many of the writers who are supposed to be interested have their necks actively craned the other way.

As for the principals: Diaz-Infante is an improvising guitarist/pianist/'little instruments' guy from the bay area (whom Nate doesn’t dig even with shovel in hand). Djll’s also from the left coast, a trumpeter & a writer: http://www.bayimproviser.com/artistd...?artist_id=137

Shurdut is a visual artist who also plays guitar & other sundry instruments. He’s been putting out CDRs of his art studio conclaves with various NYC/right coast folks: Sabir Mateen, Joe McPhee, etc. And the best of the bunch by a fair margin: Rob Brown solo.

[Jesse]

Derek:
The length gone to here to set the dramatis personae and a little "backstory" answers your own question viz. my use of hermetic.
I would add my failure to finish his post was an admixture of his windbagginess & my flagging interest with each paragraph. If I were the writer I wouldn't fear a late night posse seeking blood, as much as a small gaggle of scene makers wanting clarification/validation.

While we're here:
I have listened through the Finn date only twice, which is suffice to say: his tone is frequently so late Coltrane, his soloing so late Trane/Ayleresque, that I can dig his power, passion & bite, but hear little that I can ascribe to Finn as original, in ideas or execution. Now, if I remove the desire for something new from the assessment, he's fantastically gifted where chops are concerned, & emotion. But I'm hearing him in a period of also hearing a raft of music that eludes the -esque suffix, solely & wholly it's own thing.
How often I return to Finn will probably depend on how often I want to hear a cat who channels the elements, v. going to the elemental itself.

Warren sure sounds good. Ambivelant where Duval is concerned. And the sequencing of All The Love Shining On couldn't be more apposite, a lovely equanimity in the wake of the 4 prior work outs.

But that's just me.

Best
Jesse

[Derek Taylor]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Derek:
The length gone to here to set the dramatis personae and a little "backstory" answers your own question viz. my use of hermetic.

Hmm, by that logic nearly everything we chat about here at JC could be construed as hermetic, but maybe that’s your point?

Djll doesn’t separate himself from the ‘scene’. He’s a part of it, hence his tongue-in-cheek concern that his peers will be rethinking/reneging on their invitations for sessionwork.

Thanks for the Finn synopsis. I hear you on the borrowed versus sui generis, bottle versus wine argument & it’s a good one, but I do think Finn brings something of his own to the table. Curious what you’ve been listening to that is “solely & wholly it’s own thing.”

[Jesse]

What is his own? To me, probably the emotional dimensions (his blues, so to speak), more so than the vessel they're poured into. He's coming from a template, a lineage, extending a received language with his own (slight, to my ears) variations. Nothing "wrong" with that. I hear 80% of "jazz" cats doing that (I made up the percentage, cannot defend it empirically). You get the idea.

As soon as I posted, I thought "solely & wholly" are off the mark. Everything I hear has tributaries, elements, history, etc.
More precisely, relative to much of what is perched on top 10 lists year in/year out, I have heard a number of things in the "lower case" global neighborhood sounding remarkably fresh, arising out of a present tense, real time creativity. And though there are elements in this field evoking a precedent/tributary here & there, relative to the immediately identifiable, supposedly individual sound of most "jazz" players, there is much that sounds new & outside of my listening habits. I can cite specific recordings;to cite individual artists is to isolate them from the very context in which I think they achieve something new.

Best
Jesse

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Derek Taylor

Djll doesn’t separate himself from the ‘scene’. He’s a part of it

is he? my impression is that he's part of the extremely self-contained SF scene (with the exception of Damon Smith), and tends to spend more time talking about all the ground he broke two decades ago when no one was listening then paying attention to what's going on in the world of improvised music today.

if you want to talk about infighting, take a look at the ba-newmus archives sometimes (a mailing list for Bay Area new music, http://eartha.mills.edu:8000/guest/archives/ba-newmus), mildly entertaining for as long as you can tolerate it.

[Derek Taylor]

Thanks for the clarification, Jesse. I hear Finn using the vernacular too, but interpolating his own personalized inflections through admittedly subtle deviations. The way he'll voice a line or trace a solo. Trane and Ayler and even Rollins are evident in his sound, but he doesn't sound specifically or definitively like any of them, at least to my ears. They're more convenient points of reference than the sole building blocks of his approach. Also, he's actually been playing for a long time (a reality his recent 'debut' belies), long enough not to need to ape anyone. Nate might be able to articulate this better than me as I think he shares a similar opinion.

Jon, I can’t really speak to whether or not Djll’s level of activity constitutes legit ‘active’ membership in the SF scene. But I do get the distinct impression that he thinks of himself as part of it. Also, in the essay he doesn’t claim special immunity from the behavior/perspective he indicts. And that same SF scene is one of the chief culprits of the CDR ‘economy’ under scrutiny.

Think I’ll steer clear of that archive. There’s more than enough in-fighting here at JC to satisfy my appetite

[Jon Abbey]

Derek, I'm saying he is a part of the SF scene, I believe he plays shows fairly often. for me, using the term "the scene" means more than a local scene, since improvised music is a global community now. my point is that Djill's perspective tends to be extremely local, as far as I know, I've never heard of Tildy Bayar.

I spent a little more time with that piece, and I think it's at least somewhat misguided. some excerpts:

"The greater the number of releases, the more serious the artist—so the thinking goes. "

no one really thinks this.

"In our eyes, each individual release loses potential value just because of all the others up there, competing for our attention. "

translation: the world of current music is too complex for us to pay attention to.

"the buying experience has devolved from one of hunt-it-down-and-kill-it, to cast-your-net-take-one-at-random-and-throw-the-rest-away. "

see above.

"Radu Malfatti had a neat formula for this conundrum: “Buy or borrow one, then you know about the rest.”"

which works for Radu's recent work, but not for most musicians.

anyway, I'd be happy to have less crappy CDs in the world. the only problem is (which I don't see that they address): who decides which records merit being released?

[Jesse]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Derek Taylor

The way he'll voice a line or trace a solo. Trane and Ayler and even Rollins are evident in his sound, but he doesn't sound specifically or definitively like any of them, at least to my ears. They're more convenient points of reference than the sole building blocks of his approach.

Fwiw, my first take upon a first listen was he's the most emotionally engaging of the mimetic tribes of late Coltrane. I really like his playing, will spin it some more before sensing whether he'll land in frequent roatation, or be shelved with, say Gerstad or Watts, who occupy a similar lineage place viz. Ornette.

Best
Jesse

[Derek Taylor]

Sorry, Jon, I guess I misunderstood you. Djll’s perspective might be provincial, but based on the geographical diversity of batches I periodically receive for coverage in Cadence’s CDR column, I’d say that what he’s talking about does have something of a global scope.

As far as the blow-by-blow. I do think there are folks out there who take stock in “the # releases correlates to degree of artistic seriousness/dedication” philosophy. Matt Shipp for instance (despite his publicized hiatus), especially early on. Koji Asano would be another easy example.

His second point isn’t very well stated & it assumes an irksome passivity on the part of the music consumer, but I think the glut in music store racks that it dances around is a very real predicament. The Radu quote struck me more of a rhetorical quip. But the question, as always, boils down to how to separate the wheat from the chaff.

The lesson I took from the essay is take your lumps and don’t grouse about them whatever side of the critic/musician/fan continuum you’re on. Things are tough all over.

Jesse I think you may be a more hard-boiled ‘critic’ than me. At least the final verdict on Finn is still pending

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Derek Taylor

I do think there are folks out there who take stock in “the # releases correlates to degree of artistic seriousness/dedication” philosophy. Matt Shipp for instance (despite his publicized hiatus), especially early on. Koji Asano would be another easy example.

that's sad if true. to specifically address the two cases you cite, Matt Shipp is the best self-promoter this music may have ever seen as I talked about here recently, and anyone who takes or took (I haven't heard his name for a few years) Koji Asano seriously isn't really listening. he just made a lot of mediocre records in very different styles, and sent out promos everywhere he could.

The lesson I took from the essay is take your lumps and don’t grouse about them whatever side of the critic/musician/fan continuum you’re on. Things are tough all over.

if that's really his/their point, it's a funny one to me, because not only does Djill admittedly not put out any of his own records (for the last 12 years, anyway), he bitches as much as anyone on the ba-newmus list about lack of recognition for himself.

[Jesse]

Only for my own discerning the wheat from the pleasurable chaff. I imagine if I were a blog-based reviewer, I'd attract a fair amount of brickbats for my opinions.
As far as the "verdict" on Finn, as I said, I dig his playing. I've been listening to improvised musics for 30 years (!), long enough to be familiar with the transience of many of my enthusiasms, given the critical role time & a lived-in life plays in appraisals of art. This cuts many ways. I've shed some early tastes that seemed revelatory at the time, circled back to deep enjoyment of the shelved & exiled! That's the conciousness I bring to current listening. I get your enthusiasm for Finn's work. I would only fall out in placing him in a top 10 pantheon, as I said, in a time of discovering so much more original music. Every year that passes, I tend to reach for the source material over the current scenes' homages to the originals.
I remain alert to cats out there now who trusted ears crow about, though. It was you & Cappy ( ) who sent me to Finn. Similar enthused reviews here sent me likewise to Vijay Iyer, et al.
You asked about the "sole & whole" reference, but didn't respond to my lower case reply. Have you spent any time in that neighborhood?

Best
Jesse

[Derek Taylor]

Good points about taste and root versus vine listening. At 33, my time with the music is about 10 years fewer than yours, but my preferences tend toward the mutable too. And despite my enthusiasm, I’m not ready to slot Finn in the pantheon. It feels too early to tell and I’m hoping he opts to take some chances in the immediate future (ie. so far his immediate recordings have all relied on identical instrumentation and overlapping personnel).

As far as eai/lowercase, I’ve dabbled at the edges, mostly in the service of review assignments, but it hasn’t grabbed me as an idiom (if it can even be encapsulated like that). Part of this stems from an earlier allergy to electronics (specifically laptops) that I’m largely past, but the main reason is that so much other music monopolizes my time. I did enjoy parts of TIME TRAVEL on Erst and though not exactly eai (again those pesky definitions muck matters up) I’ve also been appreciating Ian Yeager’s MUSIC FOR GUITAR AND COMPUTER on Pax.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Derek Taylor

I’m hoping he opts to take some chances in the immediate future (ie. so far his immediate recordings have all relied on identical instrumentation and overlapping personnel).

I'm hoping he steps into a playing context with another horn as a foil/goad/complement, and/or with someone not predisposed to velcro to his style with a similarly late-Coltrane vibe. Perhaps a 'bone player.
My first of the vaunted/lambasted CIMP recordings, btw.

[Nate Dorward]

Re: Finn, I don't know, I just don't care about the whole "is it derivative, is it original" debate. The right question is more: does it make sense. You can listen to the discs & the solos are beautifully coherent--really put together well. It's surprisingly rare to hear that in free jazz of any stripe.

FWIW there's a free concert by Finn & two drummers in a few days' time:

James Finn / Warren Smith / Klaus Kugel
will appear at
The Tribes Gallery
(285 East 3rd Street- just east of Ave. C)

Friday, January 21st @ 8PM
for one show only
admission is free... donations suggested

James Finn tenor sax and flute
Warren Smith drums and percussion
Klaus Kugel drums and percussion

[Jesse]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

Re: Finn, I don't know, I just don't care about the whole "is it derivative, is it original" debate.

Nate, it's not a debate: not by any stretch can the above exchanges be seen as debate. It's two fellows discussing what they hear. And derivative isn't in my characterization of Finn's sound. I said he extends a lineage. Also, homage & template were used.
And I, thank you very much, am currently feeling my music listening revivified & shaken up by the quality of originality/freshness in other genres. For me, a welcome antidote to hearing alot of cats with impeccable chops & heavy indebtedness to their predecessors.

The right question is more: does it make sense

Oh? I think it's a tad presumptuous & prescriptive for you to instruct us on what the "right" question might be, in any discussion of matters aesthetic.
Perhaps it's your primary criteria-does it make sense (whatever that means).

.

You can listen to the discs & the solos are beautifully coherent--really put together well. It's surprisingly rare to hear that in free jazz of any stripe.

On the first sentence we agree, as I stated to Derek. On the latter sentence, you might attract some robust debate with such a generalization.

[Derek Taylor]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

that's sad if true. to specifically address the two cases you cite, Matt Shipp is the best self-promoter this music may have ever seen as I talked about here recently, and anyone who takes or took (I haven't heard his name for a few years) Koji Asano seriously isn't really listening. he just made a lot of mediocre records in very different styles, and sent out promos everywhere he could.

Jon, sorry, missed this yesterday. I was touching more on my perception of how they see things, not the reputations each has fostered. Fwiw, I agree with both of your ascriptions: I've heard one solo piano disc by Asano that I thought was so-so, the rest (a half dozen or so discs) was pretty much unlistenable. Shipp's moxie is something to marvel at for sure.

if that's really his/their point, it's a funny one to me, because not only does Djill admittedly not put out any of his own records (for the last 12 years, anyway), he bitches as much as anyone on the ba-newmus list about lack of recognition for himself.

Again, that's just what I took away from it; Djll's intended point could be completely different. Don't know enough about his persona on that ba-newmus list to confidently comment on any hypocrisy in his stance.

[Derek Taylor]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

It's surprisingly rare to hear that in free jazz of any stripe.

Nate, I’m gonna have to agree with Jesse here and opine that you may have put your foot in your mouth with this statement.

That said, Jesse- I also got the impression, at least at first, that you were marking Finn’s music/sound as specifically derivative (“mimetic tribes of late Coltrane”). My money's on a future CIMP date with Steve Swell as second horn foil and maybe Tomas Ulrich on cello.

And I’m with you on the value of musical escape hatches, they’re essential. My own usually open into pre & post-war blues, folk, funk, sst alt rock, conjunto and most recently, metal.

Funny how this *hermetic* discussion is now completely off the subject of the thread’s heading.

[Jesse]

Originally Posted by Derek Taylor

Funny how this *hermetic* discussion is now completely off the subject of the thread’s heading.

Happily derailed!

Derek, I am primarily concerned this morning that you stay WARM.
Apropos of nothing (certainly not this thread heading), Tibetan buddhists have a metaphor of the hell realm as a very, very cold place.
Today Dante's concentric circles own a little more appeal.
(It's -20 here in the Heartland).

Best
Jesse

[Derek Taylor]

Jesse, amen to all that. Hope you’re keeping the bone-brittling chill at bay too.

Exhaust fumes from all the commuters created an eeire gelid fog on the bleak drive to work this morning. Zoot Sims and Joe Pass circa ’82 in the studio helped with the defrost. Minus twenty (w/o windchill) and temps are set to drop even deeper into the negative as the weekend progresses. Ye Gods!

Perhaps worst of all, weather.com rates the golf index for the foreseeable future as: “0 very poor”.

[Nate Dorward]

Quick note--what I mean is that Finn's solos are very carefully, clearly constructed (you can follow the processes of variation, elaboration, &c easily--e.g. the way that in his lines you can often clearly hear a central sequence of rising tones which serve as the backbone of the surrounding soars & dips). A lot of free playing doesn't have that kind of strong internal logic. (I recall Nat Catchpole last year on a thread I started bluntly saying that he thought that close transcription & analysis of most free playing was pointless, it didn't tell him anything useful.)