Penguin Guide question

[Nate Dorward]

If anyone has a new edition of this book handy, I don't suppose they'd be so kind as to type in the Arthur Doyle entry? I read it in a bookstore but refuse to buy the book (no index, & I already own about 80% of the book because I have the previous edition). But a correspondent of mine (guess who) wanted to see what they had to say. (Nothing nice.)

Strange update. A few on-the-money things (I see that like me they're unimpressed by the Taylor/Dixon/Oxley disc), but other reviews that left me scratching my head, & the addition of new discs is getting very unpredictable & spotty. I probably would have bought it nonetheless if it weren't for the lack of an index.

[sonic1]

I cannot justify buying a new one either for the same reasons listed above. I guess I am not the only cheap mother out there. Mainly I don't want to take money from my music budget and spend it on books. I have too much I need to purchase. You critics are lucky to get all that free music.

[Steve Reynolds]

I cant' afford the new one - but I did spend some time with it at a local Borders - seems to me the boys have lost a bit of interest - or they need to put out an edition that only includes new entries or for artits post-1960 or 1970 or something like that

but my gut tells me they don't have the same fire and passion they once had

[Suibne]

I respect this book's value, and realize it's the result of hard work and a vast amount of knowledge on the part of the authors. Still, I have never owned a copy, and can't imagine using a book like this to decide what music to listen to or buy.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

But a correspondent of mine (guess who)

A violin player?

[Nate Dorward]

Uli: yes.

Thanks David! Though if you look carefully the review of the Basement Tapes has two stars not three ......


I have owned 5 out of the past 7 editions, in general I really like the book. But can't see why I need the new one.

[Nate Dorward]

Incidentally if you want to see why the book leaves me scratching my head sometimes compare the versions in the new edition & repvious edition of

Bill Frisell, Live

& Thelonious Monk, Underground.

[Rob C]

I bought the new one--but that's because I skipped the 6th Ed. I still enjoy it, but I think every other edition is plenty for me. There isn't enough new/revised material to justify every one. I was also disappointed to see the index go.

[bluenoter]

Do The Breakdown has the lo-fi feel of a field recording, and has a certain shambolic power.

The Penguin guide is the only place I've ever seen the word "shambolic." It turns up in several entries (or at least it did in previous editions); I can almost, but not quite, remember whose.

[bostontricky]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

I have owned 5 out of the past 7 editions, in general I really like the book. But can't see why I need the new one.

I think they've done a slightly better job at including more avant-garde material in the 7th ed.; I was surprised to see an entry for the trumpeter Greg Kelley and well as some Erstwhile discs.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

No entry for Lauren Newton??!

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by bostontricky

I think they've done a slightly better job at including more avant-garde material in the 7th ed.; I was surprised to see an entry for the trumpeter Greg Kelley and well as some Erstwhile discs.

not as surprised as Greg was, I bet. that entry is hilarious, almost worth the price of the book in and of itself.

oddly, they continue to totally ignore the Viennese scene, not to mention the Japanese one (not just the current one, but crucial musicians like Abe and Takayanagi also). not that any of this is jazz, but they include a lot of things that aren't either, I guess it's hard to decide where to draw the lines...

[Nate Dorward]

They used to have a lengthy entry on Kaoru Abe, actually: has that dropped out?

"shambolic" is mostly British--mock-adjectival form of "a shambles" (=very messy).


Incidentally, I do hope that the suggestion in the entry for Konitz's Parallels that "317 E. 32nd" must be the address of the church in which it was recorded is their idea of a very dry joke.......... Considering that to write the entry they must have waded through literally scores of versions of the tune going back to the 1950s, it should be obvious that it isn't (it's Lennie Tristano's studio's street address).

[Nim Chimpsky]

[QUOTE=Nate Dorward] "shambolic" is mostly British--mock-adjectival form of "a shambles" (=very messy).

What's 'mock-adjectival' about it?

amazon.co.uk are doing the new edition for £12.25 and I've spent some of my Christmas tokens on it. There's no point in buying CDs from them as I can get them cheaper (including postage) from the States or Canada.

[Alastair]

(in a Vivien Stanshall voice) Hi Nim, glad you could make it.

[stonemonkts]

I was surprised to see Amazon shows the new Penguin Guide to Jazz available December 2, 2008.

I'll pick up what I assume will be the very last edition.

[John L]

Not likely, although it will certainly have the last entries done by Richard Cook.

As I understand, Brian Morton is now continuing the work alone.

[LutherBlissett]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

If anyone has a new edition of this book handy, I don't suppose they'd be so kind as to type in the Arthur Doyle entry? I read it in a bookstore but refuse to buy the book (no index, & I already own about 80% of the book because I have the previous edition). But a correspondent of mine (guess who) wanted to see what they had to say. (Nothing nice.)

Strange update. A few on-the-money things (I see that like me they're unimpressed by the Taylor/Dixon/Oxley disc), but other reviews that left me scratching my head, & the addition of new discs is getting very unpredictable & spotty. I probably would have bought it nonetheless if it weren't for the lack of an index.

I cant believe some would buy a copy of the Guide based on review space for a charlatan like Arthur Doyle

have they given any Ellington discs 5 stars yet ?

[Gary Sisco]

the last one i bought -- the one before cook died -- was a waste, for me. every time i looked something up, i found it necessary to re-look in an earlier edition.

that's not a good way to make someone want the next.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by LutherBlissett

a charlatan like Arthur Doyle

I've often wondered what people mean when using a word like "charlatan" in an art context. The word requires that the subject be maliciously dishonest, no? Whatever your view of the quality of Doyle's music, is that your judgment? How did you come to that conclusion?

[Paul B]

The word also simply means "fraud." There are some who consider people who can barely play an instrument (or who play one terribly, like Doyle) and yet receive critical acclaim to be just that: frauds. It's a pretty simple and easily understood term, and you'd hear many musicians use it if you actually knew any musicians. But then, nothing is ever simple for you, and most musicians would surely run for the hills once you opened your mouth.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Paul B

There are some who consider people who can barely play an instrument (or who play one terribly, like Doyle) and yet receive critical acclaim to be just that: frauds.

Look the word up in your dictionary of choice. Receiving acclaim doesn't suffice. The entire concept turns on deception. Is there any evidence that's what Doyle is doing?

[clarke68]

I don't own any copies of the Penguin Jazz guide. I see that I can get (used, on Amazon.com) the 8th edition for around $10, the 7th edition for around $3, and probably others.

Does anyone have a favorite edition they'd recommend to someone interested in just owning one?

[Gordon B]

I don't understand why Doyle is either a charlatan or a fraud. It's the critics who are 'fooled' into thinking he's a profound player who are the frauds, no?


FWIW, Dan Warburton seems to be a Doyle fan.
Review.

I actually own a Doyle cd, although I don't remember ever playing it until now, "Live @ the Cooler." I'm not sure I'll make it through the first track. It's bloody awful.

[Paul B]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

I don't understand why Doyle is either a charlatan or a fraud. It's the critics who are 'fooled' into thinking he's a profound player who are the frauds, no?

You're correct on that score. Though again, a musician "putting one over" on others will be called a fraud by his peers—though not in Vince's world. Luckily, only one person lives in Vince's world. Most are lucky enough never to encounter it, and the rest of us can do our best to avoid it.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Paul B

You're correct on that score. Though again, a musician "putting one over" on others will be called a fraud by his peers—though not in Vince's world. Luckily, only one person lives in Vince's world. Most are lucky enough never to encounter it, and the rest of us can do our best to avoid it.

I can understand if you think that Vince's post was pedantic but is that a reason to get angry and insult him? It's hardly a capital offense.

Getting back to Arthur Doyle, I managed to keep the cd on for almost 30 minutes. It was truly dreadful,IMO. Maybe we should get Dan Warburton to come over here and defend his music.

[bigtiny]

Originally Posted by Paul B

You're correct on that score. Though again, a musician "putting one over" on others will be called a fraud by his peers—though not in Vince's world. Luckily, only one person lives in Vince's world. Most are lucky enough never to encounter it, and the rest of us can do our best to avoid it.

As someone who happens to know Vince and his enthusiasm for and understanding of music, you would probably do best to count yourself a lucky man if you were fortunate enough to inhabit Vince's world.

bigtiny

[John L]

Yea, what is with the hostility toward Vince? He has made fine contributions to this board, in my view, and was much appreciated when he lived in the DC area for his active contributions to supporting the local jazz scene. I am very happy to have met him.

[Paul B]

Vince constantly—constantly—hammers people on the use of language on this board. It's not only annoying, but in the end purely inane, because most of the time (as this one here; Luther's "charlatan" comment would make sense to any normal person) his attempts to ignore common usage or parse simple ideas fall flat under the weight of his faux academese.

And thanks bigman, but I don't really need any of Vince's input to appreciate or understand this music. In fact, he never really has anything to say about music here because he's so busy with his utterly anal hang-ups on language. I can safely say I will never gain any insight about music from Vince. If you all do, well, more power to you.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Vince constantly—constantly—hammers people on the use of language on this board. It's not only annoying, but in the end purely inane

If you feel this way, Paul, you couldn't have spelled out a better justification for using the Ignore function. Why you feel that insulting me (a not infrequent occurrence recently) is preferable to ignoring me either programmatically or virtually I don't understand. I mean, we don't know each other, and our personal interactions have been limited to the subject of your insults towards me.

My point about "charlatan" in this context is that "charlatan" and "fraud" heavily connote malice, deception, wrongdoing, either consciously (for many) or subconsciously (for probably many more, the operative phenomenon in the face of the claim that "everyone understands" what's meant). It's generally considered an aspersion, and an uncivil one when not justified. Considering someone's music "awful", though, is not an attack, just a personal opinion. I think, in a civil society, most people should care about the difference.

Thanks for the kind words, Keith and John.