Hi
Iīm a classical trained flutist and I donīt how to ghost notes on the flute. Can anybody help me?
Thanks in advance
Steffen

Hi Steffen, what exactly do you mean by ghostnotes? You might be referring to whisper tones which are very faint tones in the high register but really, really, soft?

Sometimes the terminology is quite different in other countries.

Hi Ivy,
No I don`t mean whisper tones, those Iīm able to play.
I mean the ghostnotes in Jazz like the Saxophonplayers do when they place the tongue at the mouthpiece to make a sound that is like muted. But the sound still goes on. Herbie Mann does it all the time and donīt know how.
Bye
Steffen

Steffen,I'm afraid I don't know what ghostnotes are, although I can kind of picture it in my mind from your description. There are a many posters at this site who are flutists who might be able to help you. Keep checking this thread.

Could you give us an example of Herbie Mann doing it- perhaps a specific song from an album. I'm extremely curious about this. Thanks.

By definition a ghost note is a note that sounds with a barely-there sound. Nestico in "The Complete Arranger" defines a ghost note as "a note that is more implied than played." In a musical score composers notate ghost notes by putting them in parentheses.

Piano players play ghost notes by hitting the key quick and barely. Ghost notes are indicated in "In Walked Bud," a Monk tune, as written up in the Real Book.

I too am a classically trained flutist, Steffen, and based on what I know I think producing effective ghost notes on the flute is a fairly advanced skill. That's because the physics of the instrument are such that a relatively strong airspeed is required to make any sound at all, which means almost inevitably that the dynamic level would not be sufficient in a jazz performance setting during the ghost note. So amplification seems essential for this to me. (I always play with a mic that attaches to the flute with velcro.)

I also think there may be more than one way create an implied note on the flute. Classical flutists group all the various unconventional ways of playing together and call them "Extended Techniques." The particular sound you're seeking may be one of several similar effects available on the instrument.

The "tongue pizzicato" or percussive tonguing may be what you heard Mann doing. Uncle Herbie has been performing with Dave Valentin lately, Dave loves to use extended techniques, and I know Dave uses percussive tonguing because I heard him do so in performance a couple of months ago. So that's one possibility.

The other possibility is that you heard Mann play multiphonics. This is an extended technique I do know how to do with some notes. Multiphonics are produced with special fingerings and require precise control of airspeed. The weaker of the two or three notes produced would certainly meet my definition of a ghost note. If you used a multiphonic finger and blew lightly, that would produce a ghost note on one note -- again, at least with some fingerings. This has a different sound from a whisper tone. (Watch your intonation whenever you play multiphonics.)

I know this list prohibits URLs for profit sites, but not-for-profit links are allowed, and there is a terrific web page that provides sound samples and instruction on how to produce extended techniques.
That nonprofit's URL is http://users.uniserve.com/~lwk/et4.htm.

Thanks, Fluter!

Thanks for your answers. The ghostnotes I mean are no "normal" extended techniques(I know them well because iīm experienced in extended techniques), no multiphonics, they sound different, no pizzicato because there is no rest after the note.
But Thank you so far
Steffen

Hi Ivy
Mann does it in many Solos. For example in his famous Memphis Underground. Itīs nothing you hear immediately. Only if you want to play it you hear that a normal sound is to real for this hidden sounds. If you play the notes normal itīs to much if you play them short, pizzicato etc. itīs not enough/ there are gaps between the notes.
Itīs a kind of magic. ;-)
Steffen

I believe Fluter is correct.
You imply the pitch by thinking and fingering
the tone, but with little or no sound.
I first became acquainted with the technique
in big band work. It is a nice and swinging
effect.

That is Robert Dicks's website Fluter, thanks for hipping us on it. I have both Robert Dick's manuals on extended techniques and the books definitely changed my playing by expanding my tonal vocabulary. It takes a hell a lot of work, though. He legitimizes many things that many traditional flutists are closed to.

Steffen, I no longer have that album by Herbie, but I was listening to Jasilbras, an album from the 80's. I'm not sure if he was doing ghostnotes on that. I'll dig up the Live at the Vanguard and see if I hear it. Herbie definitley got better and better with time.

Where are you from Steffen- sounds like you might be from Holland? Any great players out there we should be watching?

I hope this thread turns into a discussion on flute technique- we can all learn from each other.

Bright Moments to y'all flautistas out there!

Hello again everyone.

Gee, now I think I'd really need to hear it to begin to figure this out, Steffen! I doubt very much that it is something terribly exotic, however, given what I know about Herbie Mann's approach to flute playing.

Remember, too, that recording technology can create effects that are not possible for the player in a live situation. A fun example of this is the recording by James Galway that was edited to remove all of his breaths -- it sounds like one long session of circular breathing, which Galway does not do, at least not in public. He made this recording just to be mischievous (which I hope translates wherever you are, Steffen!) and has spoken about it on several occasions. (I'm sorry, I don't remember which of Galway's zillions of recordings it is. Not a recording I wanted to rush out and buy, let's just say.)

Also, the flute is a very personal instrument (we flutists like to say it's THE most personal instrument, but of course that just starts friendly arguments :-)) ), so there is always the possibility that what you hear is a uniquely Herbie Mann thing. No two flutists sound exactly alike to me.

Finally, I'm not sure why percussive tonguing on the flute would necessarily require gaps between the notes -- or, do you mean that the ghost notes you heard are played truly legato? Or with long note values? I've heard Ian Anderson do percussive tonguing at a fast speed and the effect is not a true staccato to my ears.

Yeah, it would sure be nice to talk more flute on this list, Ivy, but alas, the flute is not as popular a jazz instrument as it deserves to be. Lately I've been thinking this is because of the problems of amplification of the flute, and while there are real problems to be dealt with there, they CAN be solved. (Certainly jazz history is on our side. The Paul Whitehead band had flutes in it; they're right there in the pictures.)

By the way I've just started playing with a French horn player and he tells me he has the same problems with amplification as flutes have, namely that he can't use his lowest register and be heard over the rest of the band unless he's miked. Of course a savvy band will drop it down for these solos but the reality is that most cats I've played with don't have enough experience playing with flutes or French horns to understand that they should treat us a little more like they treat the bass player. And, you know, I sure hate to complain about much of anything in a band!!...better just to get a mike and crank up the volume!

:-))

I have Noseghosts when I have the flu

Rx for C3: flutter nose blowing, circular breathing on a vaporizer and stay away from that nose flute for a while.

That site that Fluter gave defines ghostnotes as "whistling" from the mouth amplified by the flute. Sort of related to whistle tones but in reverse. They also have a sound sample. Is that what you meant Steffen?

There are now more jazz flutists than anytime in history. The past generation were mostly sax players but doublers on flute. The new generation are informed by the classical flute tradition and most are flute players only (James Newton, Steve Kujala, Hubert Laws, Dave Valentin. Lew Tabakin follows the tenor sax tradition of Hawkins, Rollins and Don Byas but his flute playing is derived from classical flute tradition- he explains this on his album Rites of Pan. Jeez what a powerful player.

Yeah I can relate about the flute being buried in the band. Afro Cuban flutists have solved this by only playing in the third and fourth registers. Some can't play a good tone on the lower register. Thank god for the microphone!

Hi Ivy
I have to drive about 1,5 hours to Holland. Iīm living in Germany. My microphpne I only neednormaly in the Folk-Rock band Iīm playing in. For Jazz, even together with Sax, I normally donīt need any mic. Í donīt think that itīs neccesary in a small combo. While playing "Tutti" itīs not realy Neccesary to really hear the flute. And in Solos you hear normaly the flute in small Combos. For me itīs enough(just like in a classical orchestra) to make the sound of the band better in common. Ghostnotes: Now I think the best description for it is what jazzredcat wrote:fingering and thinking the note but not rellay playing it. Itīs something
surreal ;-). Hi Fluter the recording you mean of James galway is Paganini "Perpetue mobile". And there flutists who canbreath circular and tounge the notes. Iīm just testing which way of tounging is better(I can breath circular in legato)to articulate with "P" with the lips or doing a reverse tonguing like Patrick Gallois does"Pheeet". Anyone any experiences? And you are right Ivy that itīs pretty amazing to do Robert Dickīs techniques and itīs a improvement for every flutist.And...where are you from?
P.S. Sometimes I have problems to follow your language.
Bye
Steffen

I just thought of further explaination of how to perform
ghostnotes: "swallow" the note, instead of sounding it,
while fingering and thinking it.
I learned this terminology while studying/playing Basie
charts, courtesy of John LaPorta.

I just read this and may have an answer. When I played with Herbie at Newport (recorded as Standing Ovation at Newport, I think). Herbie captivated the audience by playing a no sound solo, unaccompanied. The first person I heard do that was Jimmy Guiffre on clarinet who would play air solos with no sound on records.

Try to increase the air to sound ratio by playing without a focus, tongue and you get what I heard Herbie play. The air carries the pitch really well.

That is not the same as what David does which is a slap-tongue effect that sounds like a pan flute. I get that by using a little more sound, but keeping a high air to sound ratio, and playing overtones with a very hard attack. I'm not sure how David does it. I find it by thinking of the sound of a Pan flute.

Robert Dick has a real slap tongue effect that he showed me at a lesson. I can't do it. But he sticks the tongue out, like exaggarated french tonguing and pulls it back hard while blowing out. He gets a pop with lots of texture. But Robert Dick is amazing. Also a great teacher. I always had problems with air noise, and no one seemed to help, until Robert saw me play for 5 minutes, diagnosed my problem and put me on the round to fixing it.

When my album in production, Todo de Bom: the music of Hermeto Pascaol comes out, you can tell me if I'm getting better.

Good luck and keep on fluting.

Mark