I really like the hip sound of using pentatonics, but it seems like whenever i use them, they sound cheesy and cliche. If anyone has some ideas of ways to use them, or interesting pentatonic scale choices over certain chords, please share.

thanks

uh .*which* pentatonic?

there are many ..

Sam .. I'd suggest checking out both Mark Levne's books "

Jazz Theory
Jazz Piano

mucho help therein .. especially in the areas of applying pentatonic patterns in a semi - "outside" fashion.

are the "many" pentatonic scales you're talking about mostly modes of the "basic" one (C D E G A in c) or are there other formations. and could you let me in on a few of the pentatonic ideas presented in Mark Levine's books.

pentas. can actually be any group of five scale tones:

the one you cite is the most common that sounds "major " over a C bass ..

however, the same notes over a D bass take on a D sus or C/D feel ...

over an A bass, they imply a minor feel with an added 11th

so you see it's all a question of context ..

some other possible pentas over a C bass :

C D F G Bb ( Gmi7 add 11 )

C Eb F G Bb ( Cmi7 add 11 )

C Db F G Ab ( Db lydian )

C E F Ab B ??? actually..
a japanese scale


pentas can be run in sequences over a bass tone:

i.e over a D sus feel

CDEG EbFGBb GbAbBbDB\b ABC#E etc ...

or in fourths:

DGCEAD EbAbDbFBbEb F#BEG#C#F# ADGBEA etc.



thats a start...

read the books!!

GP:
As I understand the formula for pentatonic scale construction, you end up with no leading tones, which is one of the reasons I find them generally vapid. Your second two pentas have leading tones. Did I miss a class? The other reason I dislike them is that they're done to death by guitarists who want alot of flash while being too lazy to shift.
As a dash of flavor, fine, but no matter how you slice it, I equate restricting yourself to pentatonics with speaking English with an alphabet of twelve letters.

Don:

C Db F G Ab ( Db lydian ) .. which is the "leading tone?"

C E F Ab B ??? actually..
a japanese scale

actually, I sorta goofed on the second one .. to resemble the "japanese" penta, the inplied root should've been the E..( If my memory serves me , this one is based on the hirojoshi (?)scale .. I may be wrong )

and the way I was given to understand it, ANY given group of five pitches could constitute some sort of Penta scale. THe first three examples are the most commonly utilized ones.

C D E G A

C D F G Bb

C Eb F G Bb

and these do conform to the criteria you mentioned ..( which , by the way was something that I wasn't aware of as a rule .. the "no leading tone" thing )

Dixon Ticonderoga:
In C Db F G Ab, C would be heard as a leading tone to a Db major triad. Speaking very loosely, 'leading tone' would be a half step, usually under, from another.
"no leading tones" was not presented as a rule, per se, but as the inevitable consequence of selecting the notes of a 5 tone scale by ascending a perfect fifth 4 times, C to G to D to A to E = C D E G A, Bb to F to C to G to D = C D F G Bb, etc. And, as systems came and went over the years, I presumed that consequence was the sound they wanted. The "any five notes" system certainly offers more interesting possibilities.
I'm here to learn. I'm older, you're smarter.

Don:

<<In C Db F G Ab, C would be heard as a leading tone to a Db major triad.>>

hmmm .. possible this effect would be minimal if the prevailing bass note present ( or the most repeated note used in the melodic cell) were the C .... same phenomenon as stressing the E in the artificial japanese penta .

<< ( reason I)dislike them is
that they're done to death by guitarists who want alot of flash while being too lazy
to shift.>>

very true .. but if employed in sequential combos surrounding the prevailing scale ( as shown in my earlier very basic illustration..CDEG EbFGBb GbAbBbDB\b ABC#E etc ...)
they can be useful in more imaginative ways ..


<< As a dash of flavor, fine, but no matter how you slice it, I equate restricting yourself
to pentatonics with speaking English with an alphabet of twelve letters.<<

agreed ..if no one bothers to screw around with them a bit ;)

<<I'm older, you're smarter.>>

dunno 'bout either parameter there ..63, going on 17 ;)

yea, i agree with Thum. I know i'm kind of a beginner, but i learned that technically a pentatonic scale is any five note scale with no half steps (not necesarily leading tones)

have it your way .. the "basic" pentas *are* the primary first three I cited which fit your criteria ..

I was merely offering more tools for your kit ..

I don't see any reason to avoid half steps.

One interesting way to use them is for instance on a Cmaj7.

You can have CDEGA FGACD GABDE all are major pentatonics from C major, but the second two choices emphasise note and interval choices that although diatonic are somewhat unusual. (4th but not 3rd in the f pent, and 7th but no root in the C pent). It gives a very open sound without as much cheese.

Side-slipping between them for instance between C and E major pentatonics, or half-step relationships, C and B, or C and Db also work well.

When you're doing anything like this try to avoid using patterns - using so few notes is simple enough, doing something very repetitive on top of that like (C minor pent). C Bb G F/ Bb G F Eb/ G F Eb C/ F Eb C Bb/ Eb C Bb G etc will sound what it is, simple and repetitive.

Try using larger intervals, like C E D G E A, or C G D A E C,patterns with wide intervals sound less pattern like, and when you improvise using the scale it will open things up a lot. Try picking a pentatonic and writing out lines for yourself without repeating very much - that should give you a lot of ideas.

Transcribe the head of Freedom Jazz Dance (Eddie Harris: Mean Greens, or on Miles Smiles are the best known versions), it's fourth based, more than specifically pentatonic, but the slide slipping is great.

Mccoy tyner is the four-note group master (very pentatonic related), The Real Mccoy (especially his solo on Blues on the Corner, I transcribed some of that) uses a lot of that sort of material and it definitely isn't cheesy. The stuff that Brecker does is just taken from Mccoy and Trane, so take it from Mccoy and Trane yourself (not suggesting you're a Brecker freak, but just in case).

With slide-slipping pick two pentatonics and write lines which go between the two. i.e. C and Db

CGDA/ AbDbBbEb/ DGEC/ BbAbDbEb (this might sound crap, it's just an example).

I have to admit I don't do much of this myself (I do write out lines for myself to try and break habits, but I don't consciously use pentatonics while playing changes, although I try not to consciously use anything if I'm performing, not in a premeditated sense, anyway)

GP:
Repeat, I'm older, you're smarter.
The big 65 was yesterday. It's proving difficult. I was nearly overwhelmed today by the urge to buy white socks.

I can see the value of practicing "your" pentas as a way of avoiding or eliminating ruts in how we hear note sequences. Are there books of scales such as the hirojoshi?

It doesn't classify by country. But Slonimsky's thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns is a great mathematical approach - lot's of note combinations and unusual patterns.

It's credited for inspiring Giant Steps amongst other things, and contains a couple of scales which I got all hot and bothered about a couple of years ago, melodic minor #5 and melodic minor b5.

Both have seven notes, no consecutive semitones, and have seven diatonic modes - just the same as major, melodic minor, and harmonic minor, and harmonic major (maor scale b6). If you take all six of those scales you get 42 possible modes which are all alterations in some sense of the major scale. Here's my personal take on it.


C D E F G A B (Ionian)
C D EbF G A B (Ionian b3)
C D E F G AbB (Ionian b6)
C D EbF G AbB (Ionian b3, b6)
C D EbF G#A B (Ionian b3, #5)
C D EbF GbA B (Ionian b3, b5)

Ron Miller in Modal Harmony (Advance, same publisher as the liebman book, I've never done more than leaf through either of them) talks a bit about mel minor #5, I got it from someone who'd read the book. At the moment I'm taking the credit for putting mel minor b5 in the same class.

Try taking the modes of all of them. It's interesting, but like I say, I not really worked out how to use this in any way that sounds half decent.

Thanks the Nat C for eloborating and amplyfying what I was trying to outline in post #4:

BTW: the "diatonic " form of the penta is the one that you guys have cited previously .. to wit:

"Diatonic scales of five tones are harmonically limited in scope because of the lack of semitones....itis therefore extremely difficult to achieve harmonic and melodic direction in a purely pentatonic form "

{Persechetti . 20th Cent Harmony ..pp 51 }

However, as I mentioned,there *ARE* other penta formations:

{ from same source - pp50 }

C Db Eb G Ab = pelog ( indonesian )

C D Eb G Ab = Hirajoshi - mea culpa #6 ;)

C D Eb G A = Kumoi

..and many others , some artificial, some based on various ethnic resources ...

another useful scale is the six note "quasi blues " scale which is the 3rd mode of the basic diatonic penta withe the tritone added:


C Eb F (Gb) G Bb ...

BTW: if you're interested in avoiding cheezoid penta patterns. pick up a copy of "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" by SLONIMSKY ...( * not* Yusuf Lateef ) and practice some of the various permutations in THAT book!

Don:

the Lateef book with the similar name to the one above has many many exoctic scale patterns in it as well.

white sox are cool .. and my "sweats" are my badge of honor ;)

Catch
I've seen Slonimsky-Giant Steps claim before, but I don't buy it. The construction formula of Steps is so clearly the release of Miss Jones, the odds on Slonimsky are miniscule.
GP
White socks are cool, but with black shoes?

A lot of the Slonimsky patterns are derived from various equal divisions of the octave ..and since one of sets of sequences is derived from " thirds of an octave " ..the relationship to Giant Steps is *there *from that standpoint.

the snarly pattern constructs that the book is so notorious for seem to turn up in a lot of the post Trane players ..on many axes besides just the sax contingent ..

( white sox and black walking shoes are de riguer up here in the northwest .. on all ages and sexes !! )

I've never seen the Slonimsky book directly related to any
particular Trane tune either. All I've seen is that Trane used the book to build technique, etc... as well as violin books.
I'm sure someone could prove their case either way though.

<<All I've seen is that Trane used the book to build
technique, etc...>

MG:

agreed .. my point that I tried to make less clearly!

BUY JERRY BERGONZI'S PENTATONIC BOOK

listen to the demonstration tracks if you need convincing!

There's a scale book by Yusef Lateef and it contains all the unorthodox scales you have never heard of. I'm using it to get different sounds in my ear as well as to improve my sight-reading. It's a really useful book and I do recommend it to all those looking to expand their scale vocabulary. I could give additional information on the book if anyone is interested. In August, I'll be in London and I'll definitely buy Jerry's book on pentatonics as well as his book on either melodic lines and/or time. By the way, I think that you(me, everyone) should try using different permutations for pentatonics: An example of this is the song Judas Iscariot bu Delfeayo Marsalis, it's a minor blues but he uses the 1-2-3-5th degrees instead of the 1-3-4-5 degrees usually employed when playing a minor pentatonicsand I think that the tune is really cool, and by the way it's 11 measures not 12 so there's another surprise.

<<There's a scale book by Yusef Lateef and it contains all the unorthodox scales you
have never heard >>

this is the one I was referring to in #16 that has a very similar title to the Slonimsky book that Trane was into ..

this too . is a good scale source ..just different that the Slonimsky .

The title is Repository of Scales and Melodic Patterns(I believe) and it goes for around $30, and IMHO it's worth it :)

I really wish I understood what the hell all of you are talking about. It seems like an very interesting discussion. :)


Then again since I don't know anything about musical theory it most likely is as basic as a discussion on "See Jane Run". lol